acaTerry said:
Smellthejeta,
I don't know of a single pilot (hopefully) that would argue that you guys bust yer buttz out there, especially when you are the only one working the gates. Just that sometimes the rampers think they know the pilots jobs as well as the pilots do. If they did, why are they not pilots?
Lessee here... Ratings, flight time, and, uh, in this day and age there are few companies hiring. Paying $$$ to get 250 hrs SIC time in a 1900 or working for Mesa aren't at the top of every wanna-be pilot's wish list. Keep in mind though, that W&B is pretty much the same as load planning, and large carriers have non-pilots do load planning. That's right, non-pilots do W&B calculations. H*ll, even Air Wisky has their ops people do their W&B. ACA ops will do it for their ATL flights out of IAD.
Someone on here said that rampers know how to calculate the limits just as well as the crew does. But there are restriction issues that the ramp is unaware of. It's not simply a matter of doing a mathematical formula. The takeoff weight limit can be restricted by landing weight limits, temperature, etc. Ramp does not have an airport analysis manual nor do they regularly listen to the ATIS for the temperature.
F/A seats get deferred, all kinds of things happen that the pilots deal with to come up with the limits. Sometimes it seems bogus, but it's not.
I know there's a bazillion things beyond the obvious when doing a W&B. I once took a peek at a J41 manual to see how the performance limits were affected by temperature/density altitude, and was rather surprised to see how crappy the performance number really are (as compared to the CRJ). My fav had to be the time we had seats 1B/1C deferred on a J41. When asked what the limits were (forgot about the seats) I was told "load it up, we have two deferred seats." I loaded it up to the structural limit. "Uh, sorry guys... We're way aft of CG, gotta pull 200 lbs of bags." The plane taxis out, and another one comes in. As I'm downloading that, I hear a J41 taxi up and new immediately what it was, because it was unexpected. "Uh, guys, another 200 lbs please, I can't taxi." Mind you, we can pull bags over pax if they're rush bags, and since I loaded the thing I knew what was on there. It was a pain to pull that crap off, because we don't sort them on board and had to look for them... twice.
And then there was the time we managed to load a J41 750 lbs over take-off weight... Boy that was fun to deal with.
The PIC is the final authority, and if we have to seem a bit hard because we keep safety as our primary concern, well, that's what we are supposed to do. The plane leaves the gate, the rampers trouble with that flight is over. For the crew, it is just beginning.
Except for the god-knows-how-many times you guys have to bring the plane back because there's not enough weight on the nose gear to steer. It happens enough.
Again, no one is fighting a pilot versus ramper battle here (I hope). But understand that the aircraft is the responsibility of the crew. After all, the CA is the one who signed for it. So setting load limits is undisputably the crews responsibility. If it seems to be too conservative, there is a reason for it. Really, what have we pilots got to gain by setting low limits? We don't care how many we take as long as the numbers are safe. If we can squeeze a full boat great. But if we are performance limited to 20 people, that's just the way it goes.
What I originally posted was a reference to limits that were too LIBERAL. If you want to leave bags/pax behind, I'm not going to be the one to argue. You wanna take a j/s and leave rev pax behind and claim it's a CG issue? I'm not in any position to argue, 'cause I didn't spin the numbers. I don't think in any of my posts I was arguing that crews were being TOO conservative. If I ever thought that, I would advise them that the flight was loaded to specs, but if they could squeeze more on, please let us know. I NEVER got a dirty look for that and lots of times was told "oh yeah, go ahead and put XXX on." However, you want me to load them when I know you can't take them, and then be told to remove them afterwords? THAT's when I'd speak up.
Actually, come to think of it, when doing limits, on the CRJ they do not consider carry-ons. On the J41, the crews would use anything from 160-290 lbs. That's A LOT of deviation. 9 times out of 10, when asked what figure they used, they'd give a straight answer. Some would get defensive.
BTW, the crews who knew me knew that when I asked them to spin a loading for me, I had a reason for it and they did it. Those who knew me also knew that when I told them to up the reported weight in the back, they did it. Why? If you have a loading situation where the bags are heavier than average, your actual weight and theoretical weight will be off and cause you problems.
I know you guys b*tch about rampers who think they know everything, but there are times when they do see things you don't. And I *have* seen you guys make mistakes or at the very least forget things. To discount everything a ramper tells you, heck, maybe they can tell you something that helps get the flight out on time with minimum hassle. I'm not trying to get in the last word here, but you seem to be directing the reponses to arugments of others towards me, when I haven't necessarily argued that they were right. It's one thing to tell a CA that something looks funny, it's another to tell him he doesn't know how to do his job.
A lot of crews will accept this, understanding that you have more than a lot to do, but we are supposed to have someone there in front of us all the time.
Which brings up the handwand issue. We can get violated for getting marshalled in without them. Don't think it would really happen? Take a look at the drool on any POI's mouth.
I can't believe that this has started, let's just let people be the experts at their own jobs.
I'd help load bags when it was really needed, but I'd never tell a ramper how to do it.
I never heard the rule that there must always be a marshaller present in front of an aircraft, and I've heard rumors that night wands were required. Of course, once or twice I could be found in the chief pilot's office asking them what they were telling line pilots because what our management told us was different. (BTW, what's a POI?)
Terry, I can't believe this has started either. The point I tried to make in my first post on this thread was that I saw a guy giving us bogus numbers, knew it would give us more work, and said something to him about it. Was I right? I must have been, because when he told us there was no limits, we ended up pulling two pax, two carryons, and some checked bags. You probably have no idea how much work and how much of a delay that is, especially since we offloaded everything one at a time after he spun the numbers each time. But then again, you may know quite well how bad those J41's can get if not planned properly. In general, I knew which flights were standups, and did my best to get them out on time. Why? I know what a standup is, and knew that the sooner you got in, the more sleep you got.
My only argument here is that not every ramper is stupid, not all pilots are perferct, and perhaps the reason they speak up is because they see something that can get the flight out a little sooner with less leg work. To say a ramper should NEVER open his mouth is just a little pompous on your part.
Just so we're clear... I've found a VAST majority of ACA pilots to be very cool and very professional. If I had an issue with something, I'd ask and get a professional answer and even an explanation. I personally never saw a "you're just a stupid ramper" attitude from pilots. More ofthen than not, I'd learn something, which is really why I took the job -- to learn about 121 ops, airline flying, and what airline life was really like. It sure wasn't for $9.25/hr and to pick fights with pilots. It's pretty obvious that in this economy, I won't be flying professionally any time soon, and my non-flying degree is going to be coming in handy right quick.
