Hello ACA

[WhiteCloud]

Re: .

A quote from acaway.com: "Everyone at ACA is of equal importance. The work of the person loading baggage on the ramp is of equal worth to the work of the captain in the cockpit. "

Unfortunately, it seems more in the direction of the Captain being the same worth as a ramper, than a ramper being the same worth as a Captain.....
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The way things seem to be going they will be the same person.

 

[4lowed]

All,

This info. pertains to the training dept. only, but these meetings occured company wide today.

Out of 86 total affected positions:

22 Involuntary displacements back to the line
7 Permanent reductions in force.

These numbers are only the beginning. Expect more training dept. downsizing near June 1st.

4lowed

 

[smellthejeta]

A quote from acaway.com: "Everyone at ACA is of equal importance. The work of the person loading baggage on the ramp is of equal worth to the work of the captain in the cockpit. "

Unfortunately, it seems more in the direction of the Captain being the same worth as a ramper, than a ramper being the same worth as a Captain.....

That's for d*mn sure. I'll tell you from first hand experience that they sure as h*ll don't give the same importance to a ramper than they do the captain.

How so? When you're running the last flight of the day to ORF, and you know the CA is giving you bogus weight restrictions for the J41 and challenge him on that, you can bet the company won't back you. Why bother challenging the CA on that? Um, well, last flight of the night, an overweight loading requires you to call out CSR's and dig out carry-ons (loaded in both compartments in back corners, who knows where the ones you need are located) and multiple checked bags, you're looking at a minimum of a 20 minute delay. I liked to prevent those if I could, made less work for me, the CSR's, and the flight got out on time. You guys have NO idea how much trouble I got into, pretty much just for pissing a captain off.

One of the BIGGEST issues I had with station management is that they do not want anybody to take the time to do the job right, just do what you're told, even if your supervisor doesn't know what he's talking about. Heaven forbid you call somebody on an error or tell them there's a better way to do things, management won't back you.

As far as CA's becoming the same worth as a ramper, I concur. I have no idea how you guys can survive on first year pay -- I did all right, but I had to work 15 hours of overtime each week, and I got paid while you guys were sitting out AR and MW delays. I've seen your first year paychecks, and they were less than mine and you worked longer duty weeks.

And for those that say, "Well the pilots aren't being productive during plane changes, so why should they get paid?" At IAD, the rampers get away with murder. They have so much paid non-work time that it's ridiculous. From the time your flight left and came back, we did not lift a finger. Once you landed, we had to turn the plane and load it, and once those were gone, we sat around doing nothing until the next bank came in.

I guess the point is how you first year guys are supposed to take a pay cut is beyond me.

 

[jjbiv]

On the Saab, we're usually MZFW limited if the flight is full and there are captains out there who will insist on pulling bags to let a jumpseater ride -- especially if the JS is a buddy. Little do most of them know that quite a few of us "dumb rampers" are capable of running a W&B scenario before the flight and being a couple hundred pounds off at departure raises some eyebrows. Taking excess fuel without informing DX or ops and then springing a weight issue on us 5 mins prior to departure is another common W&B issue. These are both rather simple weight issues; I can see how a CG issue could be difficult to explain to some of our less enlightened rampers.

Bottom line: follow your company's procedures and coordinate your actions. At C8, it is Customer Service's prerogative to decide what will be pulled in the event of an overweight flight. We have a very definite set of boarding and loading priorities to assist us. If you're "tired of rampers that they think they know more about my job than I do" I guess you could say I'm tired of crews that think they know more about balancing the needs of cargo, baggage, and pax -- and the associated cost to bump each. Granted, I think sometimes we unnecessarily castigate crews who tell us "we need to pull x bags" because we think they are telling us exactly what to pull when, in reality, they are merely communicating the amount of weight that needs to be offloaded in the manner which they think will be most easily understood.

Always try to remeber: running an airline is a team sport.

Fly safe,

joe

 

[WhiteCloud]

Bottom line: follow your company's procedures and coordinate your actions. At C8, it is Customer Service's prerogative to decide what will be pulled in the event of an overweight flight. We have a very definite set of boarding and loading priorities to assist us. If you're "tired of rampers that they think they know more about my job than I do" I guess you could say I'm tired of crews that think they know more about balancing the needs of cargo, baggage, and pax -- and the associated cost to bump each. Always try to remeber: running an airline is a team sport.

joe

I'm all for working together. However, FAR part 91 spells out very clearly that the Captain bears direct responsiblity and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. That includes W&B. Gate agents and rampers are not.

 

[acaTerry]

Let's not start a fight between rampers and flight crews here folks. In my years at ACA, I've never had a ramper challenge my CA authority.
In fact, every winter I thank God it's not me freezing my cajones off out there, sliding all over the darn place on the ramp.
The only time I have trouble with a ramper is the occassional FNG who makes "the face" at me for insisting on taxiing out on 2 engines from certain gates where the J41 will not make the turn from left to right because it's too darn tight for that make-believe nosewheel steering system.
Otherwise, we seem to get along pretty well. Unless you guys are all making fun of us after we leave.....no, neeeevvverr

 

[embdrvr]

Not trying to start any fisticuffs here.

My point was that we all need to do our jobs and if we have a problem with a coworker to deal with it properly. For instance if I think a ramper is doing their job improperly I don't necessarily bring it up to them directly. I may choose to either pass the info to my chief or speak with a ramp supervisor or station manager especially if I'm uncertain of what their procedures are.

If a ramper doesn't think I'm doing my job properly they can go to their supervisor who is in a far better position to follow up. For instance that last minute change in fuel load may be inconvenient for the rampers but if the TAF was just amended and the wx is headed for the $hitter maybe I'm more concerned about the safety of the flight than I am inconveniencing a ramper or two.

If I bump revenue to accomodate a js'ing buddy then I fully deserve the reprimand and perhaps a letter in my file. That reprimand should come from my chief pilot not a ramper.

Sometimes I wish everyone did a stint in the military. Following a chain of command can be a good thing.

 

[smellthejeta]

I am tired of rampers that they think they know more about my job than I do. I've taken a delay because a dum$hit ramper kept telling me that I should kick out the jumpseater and not ask him to pull bags. Obviously it was a CG not a weight issue but he kept going on and on about how it was BS for us to keep the jumpseater on board. Trying to make him understand that if we kicked the jumpseater off would cause even more bags to be pulled was next to impossible.
My advice to rampers is to not challenge the Captain's authority because you may not have the whole picture. Instead do the job you're paid to do and talk to a ramp supervisor after the plane is on its way. If a Captain is indeed giving bogus bag limits the ramp supervisor is the one that needs to forward that concern to flight ops.

I know what you mean about challenging authority when you don't have the big picture. But the big picture goes both ways, and the CA ain't god. He's far from it, and they make mistakes. I won't take any cheap shots here, so I won't say what's on my mind.

Somebody bothered to quote Part 91 around here. And now you are going to accuse me of being a know it all just because I have a PPL and am a ramper. Well, the regs read that the PIC has the "final authority." It doesn't mean he has the only authority, it doesn't mean that he is always right, it doesn't mean he never makes mistakes, it means that he has the last word and it's his *ss. I will speak up when I think you've left something out or overlooked something. It's my job, and I take it seriously because I have an ethical problem letting you take the heat for something I know I could have prevented it. There is a difference between bringing something to someone's attention and accusing them of screwing up. I know as PIC, there is no such thing as "too much information." Finally, wrt "captain's authority," I'd like to touch on a word you used in your last post. "Inconvenience." If you don't give a rat's patooty about making more work for something else, I fail to see why you get upset if a ramper "incoveniences" you. After all, your authority can only be challenged by somebody in a position of power over you, right? Like management? I fail to see why you let a little ramper bother you.

As far as the supposed chain of command goes, it's fine when it works. You don't want to get me started on low-level ACA management however and the supervisors that get promoted. If a pilot has accused a ramper of something, you can pretty much be assured that the ramper is already convicted (no union ya know). I'd much rather have a quick conversation with a CA if he thinks I screwed up and deal with it on the spot than have to deal with management later. I've been on the receiving end of that (mgmt) and it's not pleasant (again, no union). Wouldn't you rather tell a ramper to shut the f*ck instead of having to explain yourself to the chief pilot? And if in the situation I described earlier, if the supervisor loaded the aft beyond structural limitation and swore up and down he was right, what are you supposed to say to him? Chain of command works when people are trained well and on the same page.

Ziggy, at ACA anybody has the authority to hold a flight. I've never seen a brawl over a pax/bags/jumpseater W&B issue, but I really wonder how it would play out if an agent held a flight because the CA wanted a loading that was contrary to company policy.

Terry, what is "the face" that you are referring to? 9 times out of 10, crews would start both engines at the gate, so I'm not sure what would make the ramper get upset. It's not like you're doing something that was strange.

Emb, I too am not trying to start a fight, but I just want to point out that not all rampers are stupid, not all rampers are always wrong, and maybe, just maybe, once in awhile they spot some things that will save everybody a little work if the situation is addressed before it progresses.

 

[C-5 MEM]

Wow..........
I wrote this thread to see whats going on at ACA furloughed pilots and here I find pilots vs rampers.


TV

 

[WhiteCloud]

Somebody bothered to quote Part 91 around here. And now you are going to accuse me of being a know it all just because I have a PPL and am a ramper. Well, the regs read that the PIC has the "final authority." It doesn't mean he has the only authority, it doesn't mean that he is always right, it doesn't mean he never makes mistakes.

Ziggy, at ACA anybody has the authority to hold a flight. I've never seen a brawl over a pax/bags/jumpseater W&B issue, but I really wonder how it would play out if an agent held a flight because the CA wanted a loading that was contrary to company policy.

Absolutely you should speak up when things are not right. A good Captain won't turn it into a personal pissing match and will listen to it and respond professionally. I know it doesn't always happen that way but that's what we should all be striving for.