Hello ACA

[smellthejeta]

If I remember correctly you guys voted no to unionizing a couple years ago.

As for "the face", I saw it every once in a while. Most of the time it was in gate 12A when another airplane was parked at 12B. Just try single engine taxi out of there in the J41. Riiiight. "The face" pretty much said to me that the ramper just wanted me to get the heck out of the gate and by making him stand there for another 45 seconds I'm ruining his day.

I wasn't there for that union drive (my DOH was 1/01), and there was a second that was concluded very recently. The material I got from the IAM said that when the NLRB was petitioned for a vote, they counted the interest cards and over 100 of the signatures belonged to people who no longer worked for the company, so they didn't have quarum for a vote.

I think the first vote failed because they tried to get CSR's and ramp under one contract and CS voted it down.

The face. Well, if I was working a flight by myself, I'd ask the crew so I knew when I pulled the GPU I could just wave and tell them to start number 2 before I go park my equipment.

 

[AirBoard]

Hi everyone

I have heard ACA is going through furlough. Wow. I hope things get better before getting back. Things are going great over here. We were broke down range and had to tough it out. Hope everyone is doing good and take care and see you soon. If anyone at ACA gets to Shaw Rd. tell Dean and Lesile I said hello.


Terry Vickers
CRJ/FO
ACA

Sure is a great industry. On 4/11 C141FE posts to see how things are going while he slogs it out in the Gulf. He immediately finds out his good friend Dean has been cut loose. Then a few post later, 4/15, finds out he's now furloughed aswell. I went to school for this.....

 

[C-5 MEM]

Airboard,

You seem to like to keep up with me.

TV

 

[AirBoard]

Airboard,

You seem to like to keep up with me.

TV

Always looking out for another ACA brother, just wish things weren't going to the sh!tter so quickly. Not like I didn't see it coming though.

 

[C-5 MEM]

Airboard,

Thanks friend. I hope this will get better soon. I sent you a PM.


Terry

 

[acaTerry]

Smellthejeta,
I don't know of a single pilot (hopefully) that would argue that you guys bust yer buttz out there, especially when you are the only one working the gates. Just that sometimes the rampers think they know the pilots jobs as well as the pilots do. If they did, why are they not pilots?
Someone on here said that rampers know how to calculate the limits just as well as the crew does. But there are restriction issues that the ramp is unaware of. It's not simply a matter of doing a mathematical formula. The takeoff weight limit can be restricted by landing weight limits, temperature, etc. Ramp does not have an airport analysis manual nor do they regularly listen to the ATIS for the temperature.
F/A seats get deferred, all kinds of things happen that the pilots deal with to come up with the limits. Sometimes it seems bogus, but it's not. We're not talking about the dingalings who screw revenue passengers for the jumpseat. Let's not forget that sometimes the passenger getting bumped is a nonrev who is off-line or of a lower seniority number than the jumpseater. Any pilot who screws a revenue passenger for a JS'er deserves a whooping, no doubt about it. It may seem that rampers think we are too hardass sometimes, but really, if something happens, it is the pilot who gets the most severe repercussion. Whether this is a simple loss of a job (make it career because no one else will hire you and you have only one way to make a living, and that is to fly planes), or you die and take others who trusted you with their lives. The PIC is the final authority, and if we have to seem a bit hard because we keep safety as our primary concern, well, that's what we are supposed to do. The plane leaves the gate, the rampers trouble with that flight is over. For the crew, it is just beginning.
Again, no one is fighting a pilot versus ramper battle here (I hope). But understand that the aircraft is the responsibility of the crew. After all, the CA is the one who signed for it. So setting load limits is undisputably the crews responsibility. If it seems to be too conservative, there is a reason for it. Really, what have we pilots got to gain by setting low limits? We don't care how many we take as long as the numbers are safe. If we can squeeze a full boat great. But if we are performance limited to 20 people, that's just the way it goes.

___________________________________________________
"The face. Well, if I was working a flight by myself, I'd ask the crew so I knew when I pulled the GPU I could just wave and tell them to start number 2 before I go park my equipment."
___________________________________________________

A lot of crews will accept this, understanding that you have more than a lot to do, but we are supposed to have someone there in front of us all the time.
Which brings up the handwand issue. We can get violated for getting marshalled in without them. Don't think it would really happen? Take a look at the drool on any POI's mouth.
I can't believe that this has started, let's just let people be the experts at their own jobs.
I'd help load bags when it was really needed, but I'd never tell a ramper how to do it.

 

[smellthejeta]

Smellthejeta,
I don't know of a single pilot (hopefully) that would argue that you guys bust yer buttz out there, especially when you are the only one working the gates. Just that sometimes the rampers think they know the pilots jobs as well as the pilots do. If they did, why are they not pilots?

Lessee here... Ratings, flight time, and, uh, in this day and age there are few companies hiring. Paying $$$ to get 250 hrs SIC time in a 1900 or working for Mesa aren't at the top of every wanna-be pilot's wish list. Keep in mind though, that W&B is pretty much the same as load planning, and large carriers have non-pilots do load planning. That's right, non-pilots do W&B calculations. H*ll, even Air Wisky has their ops people do their W&B. ACA ops will do it for their ATL flights out of IAD.

Someone on here said that rampers know how to calculate the limits just as well as the crew does. But there are restriction issues that the ramp is unaware of. It's not simply a matter of doing a mathematical formula. The takeoff weight limit can be restricted by landing weight limits, temperature, etc. Ramp does not have an airport analysis manual nor do they regularly listen to the ATIS for the temperature.
F/A seats get deferred, all kinds of things happen that the pilots deal with to come up with the limits. Sometimes it seems bogus, but it's not.

I know there's a bazillion things beyond the obvious when doing a W&B. I once took a peek at a J41 manual to see how the performance limits were affected by temperature/density altitude, and was rather surprised to see how crappy the performance number really are (as compared to the CRJ). My fav had to be the time we had seats 1B/1C deferred on a J41. When asked what the limits were (forgot about the seats) I was told "load it up, we have two deferred seats." I loaded it up to the structural limit. "Uh, sorry guys... We're way aft of CG, gotta pull 200 lbs of bags." The plane taxis out, and another one comes in. As I'm downloading that, I hear a J41 taxi up and new immediately what it was, because it was unexpected. "Uh, guys, another 200 lbs please, I can't taxi." Mind you, we can pull bags over pax if they're rush bags, and since I loaded the thing I knew what was on there. It was a pain to pull that crap off, because we don't sort them on board and had to look for them... twice.

And then there was the time we managed to load a J41 750 lbs over take-off weight... Boy that was fun to deal with.

The PIC is the final authority, and if we have to seem a bit hard because we keep safety as our primary concern, well, that's what we are supposed to do. The plane leaves the gate, the rampers trouble with that flight is over. For the crew, it is just beginning.

Except for the god-knows-how-many times you guys have to bring the plane back because there's not enough weight on the nose gear to steer. It happens enough.

Again, no one is fighting a pilot versus ramper battle here (I hope). But understand that the aircraft is the responsibility of the crew. After all, the CA is the one who signed for it. So setting load limits is undisputably the crews responsibility. If it seems to be too conservative, there is a reason for it. Really, what have we pilots got to gain by setting low limits? We don't care how many we take as long as the numbers are safe. If we can squeeze a full boat great. But if we are performance limited to 20 people, that's just the way it goes.

What I originally posted was a reference to limits that were too LIBERAL. If you want to leave bags/pax behind, I'm not going to be the one to argue. You wanna take a j/s and leave rev pax behind and claim it's a CG issue? I'm not in any position to argue, 'cause I didn't spin the numbers. I don't think in any of my posts I was arguing that crews were being TOO conservative. If I ever thought that, I would advise them that the flight was loaded to specs, but if they could squeeze more on, please let us know. I NEVER got a dirty look for that and lots of times was told "oh yeah, go ahead and put XXX on." However, you want me to load them when I know you can't take them, and then be told to remove them afterwords? THAT's when I'd speak up.

Actually, come to think of it, when doing limits, on the CRJ they do not consider carry-ons. On the J41, the crews would use anything from 160-290 lbs. That's A LOT of deviation. 9 times out of 10, when asked what figure they used, they'd give a straight answer. Some would get defensive.

BTW, the crews who knew me knew that when I asked them to spin a loading for me, I had a reason for it and they did it. Those who knew me also knew that when I told them to up the reported weight in the back, they did it. Why? If you have a loading situation where the bags are heavier than average, your actual weight and theoretical weight will be off and cause you problems.

I know you guys b*tch about rampers who think they know everything, but there are times when they do see things you don't. And I *have* seen you guys make mistakes or at the very least forget things. To discount everything a ramper tells you, heck, maybe they can tell you something that helps get the flight out on time with minimum hassle. I'm not trying to get in the last word here, but you seem to be directing the reponses to arugments of others towards me, when I haven't necessarily argued that they were right. It's one thing to tell a CA that something looks funny, it's another to tell him he doesn't know how to do his job.

A lot of crews will accept this, understanding that you have more than a lot to do, but we are supposed to have someone there in front of us all the time.
Which brings up the handwand issue. We can get violated for getting marshalled in without them. Don't think it would really happen? Take a look at the drool on any POI's mouth.
I can't believe that this has started, let's just let people be the experts at their own jobs.
I'd help load bags when it was really needed, but I'd never tell a ramper how to do it.

I never heard the rule that there must always be a marshaller present in front of an aircraft, and I've heard rumors that night wands were required. Of course, once or twice I could be found in the chief pilot's office asking them what they were telling line pilots because what our management told us was different. (BTW, what's a POI?)

Terry, I can't believe this has started either. The point I tried to make in my first post on this thread was that I saw a guy giving us bogus numbers, knew it would give us more work, and said something to him about it. Was I right? I must have been, because when he told us there was no limits, we ended up pulling two pax, two carryons, and some checked bags. You probably have no idea how much work and how much of a delay that is, especially since we offloaded everything one at a time after he spun the numbers each time. But then again, you may know quite well how bad those J41's can get if not planned properly. In general, I knew which flights were standups, and did my best to get them out on time. Why? I know what a standup is, and knew that the sooner you got in, the more sleep you got.

My only argument here is that not every ramper is stupid, not all pilots are perferct, and perhaps the reason they speak up is because they see something that can get the flight out a little sooner with less leg work. To say a ramper should NEVER open his mouth is just a little pompous on your part.

Just so we're clear... I've found a VAST majority of ACA pilots to be very cool and very professional. If I had an issue with something, I'd ask and get a professional answer and even an explanation. I personally never saw a "you're just a stupid ramper" attitude from pilots. More ofthen than not, I'd learn something, which is really why I took the job -- to learn about 121 ops, airline flying, and what airline life was really like. It sure wasn't for $9.25/hr and to pick fights with pilots. It's pretty obvious that in this economy, I won't be flying professionally any time soon, and my non-flying degree is going to be coming in handy right quick.

 

[C-5 MEM]

ACATERRY

Where are you on the chopping block?

Terry

 

[Pilot877]

Quote: BTW, the crews who knew me knew that when I asked them to spin a loading for me, I had a reason for it and they did it. Those who knew me also knew that when I told them to up the reported weight in the back, they did it. Why? If you have a loading situation where the bags are heavier than average, your actual weight and theoretical weight will be off and cause you problems.


---------------

smellthejeta,

Forgive me if I am misreading this, but are you saying that you disregard the FAA approved average bag weight program when some bags are heavier than the standard? I don't have my FOM here in front of me to look it up but is that even an allowable practice? Do you have the actual weight of every single bag to give the crew an exact total on the weight in the back? I have never had a ramper in ORD or IAD come "tell" me to "up" the reported weight in the back of the aircraft. We simply follow the approved procedure for bag weights.

POI = Principal Operations Inspector, a.k.a. The Feds.

C141FE, I am sorry that you won't have a job to come back to. I will probably be gone myself, but in my case it will be closer than the last presidental election.

 

[acaTerry]

Smellthejeta,
I think you are missing what I'm trying to say....not that rampers should never open their mouth (think of how many planes would pull away wjth gear pins if it was that way). And I know you guys sometimes catch something a pilot misses, especially on these notorious "Code 20"'s. What I am saying is that sometimes you guys get pissed at us for things that there is no time to explain. For example, that carry-on issue. 290 lbs variable 160, yes. Some airports are what we call a "carry-on airport", where the pax usually carry-on a lot of stuff. But some others practically none. Usually the new CA will go with 290 until they figure out which airports have more or less carry-on baggage.


" " To say a ramper should NEVER open his mouth is just a little pompous on your part." Show me where I said that. I didn't! I said that a ramper should not question a flight going more on the conservative side. Maybe I misread what you said in your original post. But I've been flying 18 years, I KNOW my job and I simply take offense to someone who tells me that I am being too careful. I ain't going to crash a plane for rampers, Rob, or anyone else. If I see the need for a two engine taxi, it is going to be a 2 engine taxi. If the F/O thinks the turn is too tight, I'm stopping the plane. Don't forget about the 2 planes in 1998 that struck ground equipment because the ramper told the crew there was enough room on the tips. And you guys give us "the look" for asking to walk our wings! Funny how the older rampers, like Lt. Dan, really mix with us pilots well. It's because they know their job, don't tell us how to do ours, and when something is not right, they bring it up. But they do it without the WTF attitude that you are giving us on this board. Heck, if a ramper asks me to spin a whizwheel for him, do I go saying that he should just keep his mouth shut? NO! I spin the darn thing and we discuss the issue, if there is one. If a ramper says we are overloading, do I tell him to shut up? NO! I look it over with him and if it needs fixing, it gets fixed. But do I get mad when I want a wingwalker and the ramper tells me I don't need one? YES! I know ACA shortstaffs you guys, I've seen Heidi out there throwing bags, and how you guys hustle yer buttz off. But I am not driving a plane into a tug because someone "thinks" I don't need a walker.

About the plane coming back for the nosewheel steering, think about this. If the whizwheel says it's good, we go. As a ramper, you of all people should know that a 25 lb bag is more like 35-45 lbs. So if the whizwheel says the number is in limits but close, it in actuality is probably a little outside. We know this, but we have to pack as much crap on these planes as we can. The crew briefs it, and if we can't steer, we can't steer. All ACA and the FAA want is legal paperwork. Then we are obliged to try. It's not because, as you insinuate, that we are stupid or ignore you guys. We catch hell if we leave something behind that could have gone with. If it gets to be a safety compromise, the operation has to stop. Whoever doesn't like it, BOO HOO. Safety comes first. If that is inconvenient, too bad.

Look man, I am not saying anything about you rampers. In fact, I had no idea that this kind of animosity towards pilots existed because I always get along so well with you guys. Just understand, the guys like me who occasionally inconvenience someone because we leave a bag or two or will not taxi despite a rampers protest that we have "this much" (hold arms apart to simulate) room from our tips are the guys who will make your loved ones get there------alive. Ask any pilot, it happens.
If you were saying something else and I somehow missed the point, then we each just wasted a couple hours of our life in here argueing about it. What it all comes down to is this: I always listen more to someone telling me to be more careful than I will to someone telling me how to do my job so we can shove more bags on.



C141FE
Where are you on the chopping block?

Not close, but I think it's rotten that this is happening to you, or anyone for that matter. BTW, You're PM box said it was full again. You must have a lot of freinds!!! Good luck and be careful.