Helicopter question

[cougar6903]

Sorry to ask if the question has been asked before but I couldn't find the answer through searching. Why does the PIC sit on the right in helicopters?

 

[ThomasR]

Sorry to ask if the question has been asked before but I couldn't find the answer through searching. Why does the PIC sit on the right in helicopters?

Thats where the instrument panel is centered.

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[VNugget]

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/q0072.shtml

 

[Birdstrike]

I Like Right

VNugget's link is news to me but it makes sense.

Lot's of PICs still choose the left seat. But Army helo rotor systems rotate counter-clockwise so the nose of fuselage wants to rotate to the right during hover (every action has an equal and opposite reaction - Fig Newtons law). Left pedal counter-acts that in a hover. With no pedal input at hover, and the nose wanting to gravitate to the right, I wanted to be in the right seat so all I had to do was look over my right shoulder to clear the turn and start my climb with minimal power. More power is needed for a left pedal turn and climb. User preference.

 

[weekendwarrior]

Funny you asked that. I'ved asked every military IP I've flown with, and no one has been able to answer it. I can't think of a real logical reason, aerodynamically. Funny thing, I flew fixed wing before rotor wing. Right seat was weird at first, but I got used to it soon. Then, we had a LEFT seat checkout before we had our solo flight, and it was weird! So, I go from left, to right, and now centerline. Then on free time I fly left seat in airplanes. Go figure.

 

[mattpilot]

this is what i've been told and it seems most logical to me:

Because of the way the rotor turns, it is easier for the helicopter to make a right turn (for reasons birdstrike explained), instead of a left turn. So they put the pilot seat on the side which the pilot will most often/likely bank into. And in a helo, you want to always try to turn into the direction you have the best visibility (doesn't matter if you fly left or right), especially if your low to the ground.

So to me, it seems logical why the pilot is on the right.

 

[ThomasR]

Left or Right?

I have been out of the military for some time, however, when this Comman Pilot stuff came out in the early 80's we were mandatory training instrument and NOE. At the time, the main instruments were on the right side of the cockpit leaving the left side with more visibility. So, if you were instruments that day it was right side and if you were NOE it was left side. Then we got into low level instrument navigation which confused everyone.

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[mudkow60]

Just my two cents worth... think I remember something about right hand pattern being stardard in a helicopter (that is, if you actually have to fly a "pattern").

 

[ThomasR]

Just my two cents worth... think I remember something about right hand pattern being stardard in a helicopter (that is, if you actually have to fly a "pattern").

Opposite of fix wing traffic.

 

[mudkow60]

Yeah... that is right hand, right?

 

[skiddriver]

The collective lever on early helicopters was just that - a real long lever that ran up the center of the cockpit. The cyclic was positioned in the right part of the cockpit so that the generally right-handed pilots could control the cyclic with their right hand and the collective (in the center of the cockpit) with their left. The practice hung on after dual collectives and cyclics were introduced.

 

[FracCapt]

I've always figured one of the big reasons is that if you need to do something on the instrument panel....such as dial in a new freq or set an OBS...it's safer to set the friction on the collective and take your hand off of it than it is to take your hand off the cyclic. In all the helos I've flown, you don't want to set the friction on the cyclic flight. I've flown from both seats, and I find it easier to fly from the right seat. Of course, when flying from the left seat....I just pin the cyclic in position with my knees and reach over to do whatever I need to do.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

The previous link is correct.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I've always figured one of the big reasons is that if you need to do something on the instrument panel....such as dial in a new freq or set an OBS...it's safer to set the friction on the collective and take your hand off of it than it is to take your hand off the cyclic.

Every Army Huey or '60 driver I asked this question gave the same answer.

 

[Tim47SIP]

My favorite subject!

Well Skid dood has most of the correct answer. I am kind of shocked at the number of Helo guys here that really did not know the "actual reason". Most Army guys are taught this, but maybe times have changed since I went to flight school. I didn't think it was that long ago!

The real reason is a combination of some of the above posts. This in fact came from the early rotor configurations. The instruments were put on the right side for a specific reason. One was the cyclic. You needed to be able to fly the aircraft while doing other things, like radio tuning, etc. Keep your right hand on the cyclic and left hand somewhat free for other things. As stated in earlier posts, at the time the original helos were being built, the engineers decided that the majority of pilots were right handed, which was true. But it would not be in the best interest to safety to have left and right seat helos. The other reason for the right seat being set up for the PIC is that most helicopters are single pilot, and if you had to egress in a hurry, there is not a collective in your way to move out! It was a combination of engineering and egress. Most "two pilot" helicopters are not "structually" built for this historical design, so their instrument clusters are on both sides. Left or right does not matter, although the cyclic is still in the same place. Just got recalled again,so I'll let you know if anything has changed.

 

[weekendwarrior]

Another perfect example why I fly the Apache. I don't have to cloud my little brain with these details anymore. It becomes a front seat/back seat debate about which on is better!

Personally, I like flying from the back seat. Feels more natural, but the visibility in the front seat is better on approach. Anyone want to chime in on this one?

 

[Birdstrike]

WW, does your glass panel incorporate an HSI? Somebody told me that the 64 still didn't have a glideslope receiver installed but I found it hard to believe ??

 

[46Driver]

Another thing to think about are approaches to the ship. On a fixed wing carrier, the jets hit the angled deck on a starboard to port approach. On a LHA or LHD (helicopter carriers) helicopters come in port to starboard to a set spot. In the big birds (46's and 53's), the aircraft commander sits on the right and has a better view for landing. However, it is certainly not set in stone which side the HAC sits on, many Phrog HAC's choose the left side because it has more room.

 

[weekendwarrior]

You are right, no GS receiver. No VOR either. The HSI is for the NDB! We also have GPS, though.

You would think they could have spent a few grand more on a $26 Million helicopter and put a VOR/LOC/GS!

 

[Birdstrike]

Another thing to think about are approaches to the ship.

Just curious 46D, do you fly right traffic patterns on ship approaches (which would seem to favor the right seat)? Also, what is meant by a "starboard to port approach?"

 

[ThomasR]

Gunship Pilots

OK, now I have a question.

I flew slicks in the military so I know very little about the mechanics of a gunship. While in the National Guard our unit had LOH's [oh-58], Huey's [uh-205h] and Charley Model Guns. Once a year the gun platoon would do in-flight and static firing from a concrete helipad to meet annual qualifications.

One year at a static firing a ship was positioned on the helipad with its guns [side mounted mini guns] in the stowed position. Luckily the safety officer was there and had quadrant off a safe zone around the perimeter of the aircraft for spectators [they arrange these events just at dusk when the low areas of the terrain are in dark shadow which provides a good backdrop for the tracer to target ranging but also a light show spectacular].

The ship was at full operating RPM with one pilot right seat. When he armed the system the right gun came up firing and once it hit its forward sighting position it quit firing . Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.! The left side came up normal.

The rounds cut the concrete pad in half [at least 6" of concrete and whatever they put in it and under it]. Dust, lots of smoke, concrete shrapnel, sparks, phosphorus, grass, stones, dirt flying everywhere. It shocked everyone present ; we all hit the dirt thinking this is definitely not normal. The crew chief went nuts thinking the pilot had gotten hit [which he played up by lying limp and motionless until the chief yanked the door open]. He was ok just sucking all the attention he could out of the incident. But the side of the aircraft had major shrapnel damage.

I never did find out what the problem was. Has this ever happened to other systems you know of? These systems are all ancient history by now but do you have any idea what might cause a gun to come up firing like that? Don't they have some sort of fail safe component?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Another perfect example why I fly the Apache.

I heard a horro story about flying the Apache the other day...is it true a lot of guys are only getting about 100 hours a year???

 

[weekendwarrior]

Can't speak for the "gunships" (I use that loosely for an OH58!) you are speaking of. But, with the Apache, in order for the gun to fire, there is a ground inhibit that is tied to the squat switch. You have to push a ground override buttin, arm the system, and have the gun selected to fire. It would be very difficult to accidentally fire the gun of the Apache on the ground. Plus, anyone in their right mind wouldn't even think about arming the system on the ground with live rounds on board. Also, the Apache shoots a 30MM, which has just a bit more kick than a minigun you might put on a 58.

 

[weekendwarrior]

I heard a horro story about flying the Apache the other day...is it true a lot of guys are only getting about 100 hours a year???

If you are talking about active duty, it is not true, simply because you have to maintain minimum currency which is 140/year anyway. The numbers I've been hearing from the active duty folks that are not deployed, is about 200-300/year. Go to combat and you can at least double that.

Now, National Guard units sometimes have maintenance problems, etc that they can't keep up with. When a unit transistions to a new aircraft, there are some growing pains waiting for new aircraft. In this case, pilots are put on waivers for flight time and mostly fill the time with simulator hours.

There are alot of jokers out there flying sissy airframes like the 58 and the 60 (chinook guys are cool even though they fly a dumpster getting screwed by two palm trees) who like to talk smack about the maintenance of the Apache. (sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity to poke fun at the 58 and 60 drivers)True, it is a very complex aircraft, and requires much maintenance. They do break sometimes, just like all military aircraft. But every career Apache pilot I have spoken to never mentioned they didn't get the flight time. These are 10-12 year guys with 3000 hours of Apache time.

 

[FN FAL]

I like the civil service exam question where they ask you which helicopter would be best suited for the moon. They have several depictions of helicopters with different shaped and sized blades and of course they have a answer that lets you out...but I wonder how many dorks picked the chopper with them big moon sized blades. Hehehehehe...

 

[Tim47SIP]

Cool!

There are alot of jokers out there flying sissy airframes like the 58 and the 60 (chinook guys are cool even though they fly a dumpster getting screwed by two palm trees) who like to talk smack about the maintenance of the Apache.

It's a good thing you said that! I happen to agree with you. I did nothing but haul Apache parts to the poor saps on the front line in GW1. Great bunch of guys though! P.S. At least we can carry ANYTHING we want to live on and we can sleep 8 very comfortably in the Boeing Hilton.

Birdstrike

Just curious 46D, do you fly right traffic patterns on ship approaches (which would seem to favor the right seat)?

I am sure 46driver will respond as he has more DLQ experience than I, but it really depends on what spot you are landing on. Could be a left or right pattern. Both seats can fly the pattern, but when I used to teach DLQ (deck landing qualification), I would have the guy making the approach sit in the seat on the side of the ship when departing and on the approach. Not the guy who is near the ship on the downwind. So the guy in a right pattern would sit in the left seat. Remember, the pattern is ususaly started and stopped on the same side of the ship. You lift off, fly along the side of the ship until the bow, then sort of make a right (or left) 270 to line up on a 45 degree line that extends outwards and to the rear from the spot on the ship (or lights at night). Some ships have 9 spots, some two, some one. Certain aircraft are only allowed on specific landing pads. CH-47's were limited to two spots (we took up both) and above. Hope that is clear as mud.

 

[mudkow60]

On a carrier, the approach is left to right, so the right seat crosses the deck first. But I am kinda confused with the entire thread.... military guys are supposed to split the first pilot time, while the aircraft commander logs the entire time as HAC. In the Navy (at least in the HS and the HC SAR community), pilot and copilot seating is interchangable.

 

[46Driver]

chinook guys are cool even though they fly a dumpster getting screwed by two palm trees.


Just curious 46D, do you fly right traffic patterns on ship approaches (which would seem to favor the right seat)?

Could be a left or right pattern. Both seats can fly the pattern, but when I used to teach DLQ (deck landing qualification), I would have the guy making the approach sit in the seat on the side of the ship when departing and on the approach. Not the guy who is near the ship on the downwind. So the guy in a right pattern would sit in the left seat. Remember, the pattern is ususaly started and stopped on the same side of the ship. You lift off, fly along the side of the ship until the bow, then sort of make a right (or left) 270 to line up on a 45 degree line that extends outwards and to the rear from the spot on the ship (or lights at night). Some ships have 9 spots, some two, some one. Certain aircraft are only allowed on specific landing pads. CH-47's were limited to two spots (we took up both) and above. Hope that is clear as mud.

That part about a dumpster being screwed by 2 Palm Trees has to be the best thing I've heard in a while.

Tim is on the money. Port to Starboard means that you are on the left side of the ship (when looking at it from behind the stern) and you are going to the right. That way, the pilot on the right has a better view. Also most of the landing spots on the LHA's and the LHD's are the port side of the ship.

Saw a couple of 47's land on our ships once. Makes me appreciate the droop and flap restrainers all naval aircraft have - I did not realize how far down the Chinook's blades dropped.

 

[skiddriver]

On a carrier, the approach is left to right, so the right seat crosses the deck first. But I am kinda confused with the entire thread.... military guys are supposed to split the first pilot time, while the aircraft commander logs the entire time as HAC. In the Navy (at least in the HS and the HC SAR community), pilot and copilot seating is interchangable.

That's on the big decks for standard approaches. LPD/LSD/LSTs all accomodate approaches in either direction (left-to-right, right-to-left). You can also come into the LHAs and LHDs from the "wrong side" to the starboard spots in a non-standard approach.

Also, while it may be common practice to split the FPT, nowhere is it required. It's up to the HAC/AHC's discretion when he/she fills out the NAVFLIR.