Hawker 800

[ip241au]

Fun airplane to fly

Hawker 800 is a great airplane. Reliable and sturdy. Has the legs if flown at LRC. Older models have the TKS anti-icing system (anti icing fluid pumped out of the leading edges of the wings and tail), not quite sure if newer models use TKS. Lift dump is noteworthy. Fun airplane to fly.

 

[G4G5]

Anyone have any experience with the IFIS mod to the Collins Pro line 21?

Looking for cost and down time numbers. If it's worth it, how is it updated. Any info would help.

 

[hawkerflyer]

Was the winglet mod worth it? Cost, added performance, downtime?

Yes and No. We were doing similar legs prior to the mod, our typical mission hasn't changed. We've yet to do Europe or Hawaii. Cost ? Although we're matching or beating API's numbers, it'll take several years to recoup the outlay in fuel savings alone. You will get it back on resale and you will sell it faster. Added performance ? Noticeable, especially on 2nd segment coming out of SDL in the summer. API's numbers for +20 KTAS, +.02 Mach and +2000' initial cruise planning are accurate. Downtime ? West Star GJT had it for 13 days, completed on time.

 

[EMU]

G4G5,The Hawkersaurus is a fine airplane to fly around North America for the VP's. That is what we use ours for. It is a reliable workhorse and easy to fly. Not having a hot wing is my biggest complaint. The TKS can be a pain. It is not a speed demon, but it is all relative. Having a Honeywell Hawker would compliment the G4/G5, although the system doesn't work as well as it does in the Geewiz's. All Honeywell Hawkers that I have flown seem to have a mind of their own. We were always asking "what is it doing now?" The Proline handles the aircraft much better. Also, I do not believe the winglets are a big benifit. They seem to help in the climb the most, very little speed or range improvement. They look nice, but probably not worth the money. Just my two cents.EMU

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you'd like to compare numbers on airplanes please visit this link:

http://www.atlantajet.com/Inventory/Comparison_Query.php

This is powered by Conklin/deDecker - the industry standard.

Also, G4G5, pls check PMs.

 

[Jetdriver69]

We have had both models of FMS and I can say hands down that the Proline is better. In fact, the avionics are much better than the our 2001 model GV. Nice airplane to fly, very forgiving, great autopilot. The Proline is not as user friendly as the Honeywell, but has tons more capability with XM wx, paperless cockpit, super displays. You can get very lazy flying the 850xp, it does everything for you except autothrottles. The new 850xp has had a few reliability issues but Hawker has fixed everything quickly and under warranty.

 

[Blackjet]

What is your typical reserve going into VNY or SFO from the east coast?

1500 to 2000 pounds depending on how fast ATC got you into the 30s. If I recall, the 800s hold 10K pounds of fuel. If the keep you low in the teens and lower 20, you,ll have to pull the power back to the FF #s you are wanting. No sense in gobbling up all your fuel down low to save 3 or 4 minutes in the long run. You'll have a step climb in your future as well. Maybe 2 or more of them. When getting "On Step", see if you can get a climb at a minimum ROC (less than 500FPM). Keep your speed up in the climb, never let it go below .68M, NEVER. You'll already be sipping fuel, so keep the forward speed instead of trading it for altitude, then having to burn off fuel or burn up fuel to accelerate.

You can make the flight 1 of 2 ways.
Constant Mach (.70M)
Constant Fuel Flow

I like constant FF, because it simple mathmatics and there is no guess work. Also, you will accelerate over the course of the flight while maintaining your burns. Either way of planning should get you want you are looking for, just remember to get into the book and see what the selected constant Mach is going to give you in terms of FF and TAS.

One final note, if you are looking at an AVERAGE of over 60knots of wind on the nose, you are most likely going to have to stop. If that is the case, do as others have suggested and go as fast as you can on both legs, and stop as late into the flight as you can. PAX might appreciate flying 4 hours, then having only an hour or so left instead of flying 3 hours and having 2 to 3 hours left. FLTPLAN.COM is a great place for getting somewhat accurate wind average for your trip and they also have 90% winds, which will help on a trip like this if you know how to use the historical forecasts. Finally, be sure to take the wind readings at your fixes and put them into the box. I used honeywell, and doing that always gave great data in terms of seeing what you could do. Duats of Fltplan.com will work for getting winds at your particular fixes. Make sure the PERF DATA is programmed accordingly in terms of Altitudes and Speeds. Do all that, and you should have a pretty good idea of what's to come.

Just my thoughts.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

I have ben flying the 800xp for over a year now and have not once maid NY to the west cost , it is not going to do it with a good fuel reserve. We climb at .70 and cruise at .75 and long range at .63. We have the proline 21 and I love it. We also have a g4 that the guys fly both and are happy with the Hawker coming from the G4. We have made Vanc-to-HPN no stop with about 1800 lbs of fuel. The airplane it a great airplane to fly. Some of the draw backs are the baggage and the range on it. If you can get the collins then get it, the cockpit looks alot cleaner and the system is so easy to use.

.63 for LRC? Are you kidding me?? (and not the first to suggest it on the first page of the thread!)

 

[IronManNDFW]

G4G5:

Unlike some that have posted here I have been flying the 800XP for 6 years now going on 7. Yes, I do work for one of the condo jet companies, and we run them pretty hard.

Get the XP if you have a chance. The extra bump in the thrust from the -5BR's is 4,750# vs the 800's -5R's at 4,304# comes in handy on most days.

If you can find a decent one, BUY it. Consider looking at www.Raytheonresale.com. They are the manufacturers, and they often have some good XP's for sale, asnd you can PM me to find out how to get a good deal.

As you may elicit from my statement, I take the "Hawkersaurus" EVERYWHERE, any time and any Clime. It dosen't matter (except maybe Telluride or Vail on a warm day) where you go from to. I have done VRB - SNA with 140 kts on the nose over PHX that dropped off to 60kts, and landed with 2000# fuel.

West to east no problem. I know of a coke botteling company that takes their XP from PHX to PHNL. We usually leave SFO-PHNL. There is, depending on the day, you have a wet foot print with the XP. Some days it's a couple minuets, some days????? Just ask for the winds and plug in the numbers.

The Hawker has an atrocious set of performance charts. The only ones worse are on a BeechJet or 400XP.

Yes, the XP holds 10,000# of fuel. I have done HOU to CYXD with full pax and baggs, and back on 1 tank each way landing with 2000#.

For the most part don't sweat the fuel, unless you left it on the ramp!

The Honeywell system is just fine, and transition to and from the XP should be no problem. I will admit that most of the Collins comments aparently come from those who have flown Collins before, and as you note they have a whole year or so flying the Collins in the XP. I've flown it. Collins has it's querks, and sometimes we sit there asking "what is it doing now?"

The Honeywell seams more intuitive, and anyone coming from and other Honeywell equipped a/c will find it very familure.

The XP s a very nice plane to fly, and to hand fly. We routinely go to FL410 in the XP with full gas and pax. The only step climb I have ever had was if ATC screwed us. Once you get used to the Ram's horn, you really don't want to fly anything else. Here's a HUGE hint, place your hand on the shoulder of the ram's horn, and you have the a/c under total control. The a/c is very manueverable, even dirty. I've done s turns to get slowed down, and dirtied up before the rwy more than once, and never felt the airplane did anything other than what I wanted it to do.

I've had 1 a/c with ap issues, and have had to hand fly it at FL410. It hand flies wonderfully. Once I reingaged the a/p it flew us on to our destination with no further problems.

The profile that allways works the best for us is: 210KTS below 10, then let it accelerate to .68 for climb, then we cruise at .70 - .78 depends on if we want to get home faster or not. DO NOT LET THE SPEED DROP BELOW .65 during cruise. If you do you are like a boat not on plane yet, and just mushing through the sky, which ruins your efficency. If you start to clown around below .65 at cruise just remember you heard it from me 1st, you are in the danger zone here, and it will do a HS stall on you. On the descent you can go to the barber pole, and the ride will be smooth, but steep. I've had ATC try to move me because of a faster climbing airplane, just increase power to climb, then pitch the nose up, you'll out climb most all airliners, I have. And then ATC says to you maintain your flight path, traffic is no longer a consideration. That is unless you get a SWA 737-7/800 climbing to FL410. You might not out climb them.

For a more comfortable deck angle you can set the FF to 1500# each on climb, and descent, and take the nice easy climb or descent. You can fly the Hawker at either Constant Mach or FF. I do Constant Mach. Set it and almost forget it. Yes, it goes faster when lighter, but it will also do .80 no problem and no quirks at this speed.

Lift Dmp is great. T/R's are even better. 2 things the Hawker can do real well is STOP, and slow down / come down. Like all arplanes it is anemic during climb in the summer, until reaching cooler temps / altitude.

The XP & 800's are built like tanks. I actually think that the Brits took a tank, put on winds, and jet engines and called it the HS125-1. But the airlane is VERY forgiving, even for newbes. It is comforthing to know that when few airplanes are getting in due to WX, you will always see a Hawker there. It is usually me or one of my buddies in a Hawker.

I have spent more money on TKS in the summer than in most winter seasons. Just part of the cost of ownership, like gas. Never leave the ground without full tank of TKS, it's all you have. Well you have heated winshields, but... The hawker will take a load of snow and ice and keep on flying. Just don't take-off that way! But don't worry about that stuff, worry more about Thunderstorms! Than again these are not a problem if you are a pilot and know how to fly.

Now to let you know about the seats. Best in the business as far as I'm concerned. They are infantly adjustable, which comes in handy as I am 6'4", and tip the scales at 250#. Yea I'm a big guy, but I fit the airplane well. It is easy to get out of either seat, and take a walk to the restroom.

The baggage area lacks some to be desired. I have packed that thing full of crap from LAX to TEB. I once took a group of people from Toranto to TEB, 9 pax, 2 pilots, pax luggage enough for 3 weeks, Minks for 6 of the pax an had no issues with the airplane. You do become an expert on loading luggage, and it dosen't take long. I've picked up guys from Huning and their rifles fit just fine, fishing rods and reels fit fine too. I've also done teh golfing trip to International Falls with 6 golf bags, and baggs.

The Hawker has a HUGE operating Envelope. It is hard to get the a/c out of balance, even with full fuel.

If it dosen't fit the luggage area, put it in the seat or send it FedEx or UPS..

The winglets look pretty but only add about 3% to your numbers. Frankly it's not worth the added cost, uless you need that extra performance.

5000' runway is all you need on the majority of days. Sometimes you may want to give yourself a little extra room, and scooting your seat back won't help.

PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

IronMan's mention of the performance charts reminded me:

Cough up the dough and buy UltraNav software for performance calculations. You will thank me later!

Iron: Nice writeup, btw.

 

[jagmagic]

.63 for LRC? Are you kidding me?? (and not the first to suggest it on the first page of the thread!)

and if you kept reading the posts I said that that was a typo and I made a mistake.

normal cruise .75
normal climb .70
LRC .70

 

[CaptainSpaz]

and if you kept reading the posts I said that that was a typo and I made a mistake.

normal cruise .75
normal climb .70
LRC .70

I'll buy those numbers. .70 in climb definately better than .63... as long as you can maintain it anyhow.

SPaz

 

[seawings]

Hawker 850

There is a good article in the December issue of Pro Pilot (starting on page 66) that is "fairly" objective. We fly both the 850 and the GV and in some cases the 850 is easier to operate...especially to smaller airports. The 850, like all Hawkers, is easy to set up, start up and get up and going. A great all around airplane. Enjoy and good luck.