Hawaiian to file 1113(c)

[dash8driver]

are they just waiving it over your heads right now?

 

[English]

Sounds vaguely familiar....

 

[Sleepyhead]

It hasn't been filed yet, but the company is still planning on doing so.

Do you think they will file it before the 25th?

 

[RJP]

Tuesday, January 18, 2005



Hawaiian Airlines
may seek to force
concessions on pilots




The company also plans
to request to delay a key
Bankruptcy Court hearing


Hawaiian Airlines, which has reached labor agreements with five of six union groups, may file a motion as early as today asking the federal Bankruptcy Court to impose a contract on its pilots.

The company also plans to request that the court postpone a reorganization plan hearing next Tuesday that was to have determined whether the company can emerge from bankruptcy. Hawaiian officials confirmed that the hearing will be rescheduled for Feb. 8 to give the airline more time to try to work out an agreement with its pilots.



Hawaiian Airlines trustee Joshua Gotbaum declined to comment on the motion or any other aspect of negotiations with the pilots.

However, people familiar with the situation said the filing of such a motion was imminent. Minutes of a teleconference call held Friday between the pilots union, attorneys for the trustee and the unsecured creditors committee also said that Hawaiian may file the motion against its pilots as early as today.

Hawaiian has been unable to come to terms with the Air Line Pilots Association unit that represents 304 Hawaiian Airlines pilots. The key issues involve retirement, disability, health care and compensation. Hearing dates on the motion -- if it gets filed -- have been scheduled for Feb. 14 and 15. If those hearings are held, the date to confirm the reorganization plan would need to be pushed back again.

No discussions between the two sides were scheduled yesterday.

Jim Giddings, negotiating committee chairman for ALPA's Hawaiian Airlines unit, said the pilots don't feel any additional pressure to strike a deal because of agreements reached with the other unions.

"You can look at it any different way," he said. "I think (with the motion) or not, we take our contract negotiations very seriously and it's important for us that we reach a fair agreement that reflects the current situation with the company."

Giddings said he didn't know the particulars of other unions' contracts but he was "glad that they were able to reach agreements that were fair."

Reaching an agreement with the pilots union is paramount for the airline to emerge from bankruptcy. No union contracts go into effect unless agreements are reached with all unions.

Giddings said he believes the two sides can reach an agreement without putting the matter in the hands of Bankruptcy Judge Robert Faris.

"We have told the company that we're totally willing to negotiate and I think a negotiated settlement is the best way to go," Giddings said. "They told us they want to negotiate and I think there is a desire on both sides to continue negotiating. I thing it's certainly possible we could reach an agreement. I don't think the differences are insurmountable."

For Faris to impose contract changes on the pilots, the airline would have to prove that the changes are necessary for the company to reorganize and that the changes are equitable.

"If the creditors are getting 100 cents on the dollar and the shareholders get to keep their value and the employees take big concessions, then that's not fair and equitable," Giddings said.

Earlier this month, a bankruptcy judge in Chicago rejected a cost-cutting agreement between United Airlines and its pilots because he said it essentially would give the pilots veto power over other labor groups' negotiations with the airline. The pilots union would have been able to terminate its agreement and be paid $28 million a month if United continued pensions for other unions or failed to win concessions from them.

A reorganization plan for Hawaiian proposed by Gotbaum, the unsecured creditors' committee and investment group RC Aviation LLC was scheduled to be presented to Faris for confirmation at next Tuesday's hearing.

With that hearing postponed, the door is now open for a competing group to have a hearing on its own plan next Tuesday to determine whether the plan is feasible enough to be sent to creditors. The group, which claims it has $500 million available and will put up to $300 million into the airline, comprises the Hawaiian Reorganization Committee LLC, Hawaiian Investment Partners Group LLC and Hawaiian Airlines pilot Robert Konop.

"I think so far for Hawaiian's bankruptcy that competition in terms of potential reorganization plans has been a good thing for the airline and for the ultimate plan for creditors and shareholders," Giddings said. "I don't see any reason why continued competition wouldn't continue to be a good thing for the airline."

 

[HAL]

It happened.

The trustee filed the 1113 motion today. If there isn't an agreement with the pilots by the next court session (Feb 14 - 15) the battle is on to show whether or not the trustee should be allowed to impose their version of the contract on the pilots. Could get really ugly, no matter which side wins.

HAL

 

[Boeingman]

It happened.

The trustee filed the 1113 motion today. If there isn't an agreement with the pilots by the next court session (Feb 14 - 15) the battle is on to show whether or not the trustee should be allowed to impose their version of the contract on the pilots. Could get really ugly, no matter which side wins.

HAL

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050120/hawaiian_airlines_pilots_2.html

It should get ugly from ALPA's point of view. Reference the last paragraph, this is a graphic reason never to trust management in these situations. You would think the judge should take that promise into consideration. I won't hold my breath with that though.

I am realizing that ALPA national will never step up to the plate and start acting like a real labor union to stop these gutting and abbrogations on all of our contracts. They could at least pretend and act like they are doing something instead of glad handing each other down there in Herndon.

Where is all the hue and cry from ALPA members like we faced at CAL during our bankruptcy? The statements like "you're dragging the industry down, strike, shut the airline down, teach management a lesson". Or this one, which I just politely reminded a UAL Captain this week (when he refused to ride on the hotel van with CAL ) "you shouldn't be allowed to operate in bankruptcy for so long".

I am not advocating the above statements, but the hypocrisy that exists within this union, the leadership and the membership is disgusting.

 

[Jim]

Where is all the hue and cry from ALPA members like we faced at CAL during our bankruptcy? The statements like "you're dragging the industry down, strike, shut the airline down, teach management a lesson". Or this one, which I just politely reminded a UAL Captain this week (when he refused to ride on the hotel van with CAL ) "you shouldn't be allowed to operate in bankruptcy for so long".

I am not advocating the above statements, but the hypocrisy that exists within this union, the leadership and the membership is disgusting.

The reason the 1113(c) motio was filed is because HAL pilots have refused to back down and take anymore concessions. HAL is making a profit and RC wants to suck it all off into their bank accounts. HAL ALPA is standing up the Strategic Planning Committee. Even though I am furloughed and out of the loop, I truely believe HAL ALPA will not accept any concessions and that the pilots will strike if the Judge rules in favor of the company.

I'd rather stay on furlough a couple of more years and go back to a good contract than get recalled next week to that piece of $hit RC and Gutbomb are trying to force down our throats. RC/Gutbomb are not trying to reduce our pay, but to wreck havoc with our work rules, retirement and disability plans.

Reading the 1113(c) filing which contains both RC/Gutbomb proposed contract and the latest HAL ALPA offer, it's very obvious that RC/Gutbomb are trying to offer a carrot to the active pilots by sticking it to the furloughed pilots (different plans/level of benefits for retirement). It seems a lot of the differences during the negotiations has been HAL ALPA refusing to screw us furloughees. That is awesome and show the true meaning of union brotherhood. Divide and conquer is not working due to the outstanding MEC of HAL ALPA.

 

[HA pilot]

Hawaiian will post a 70 million profit for '04 and did so in '03 as well. This, at an airline with just 25 airplanes (less than 300 active pilots). Pilots are not seeking raises, just status quo. If Gotbaum claims he NEEDS contract changes to exit bankruptcy under these circumstances, then maybe Gotbaum needs to be reorganized. If this is'nt abuse of the bankruptcy court, then what is.

 

[Boeingman]

Jim:

I shouldn't of written that last part in there since it sounded like it was directed at HAL pilots. It wasn't. It was just a generalized statement and my apologies for any misunderstanding.

I am glad to hear that some MEC somewhere has a backbone to say enough. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever have expected UAL or U MEC's to continually bend over like they have. Or should I say...like they told us to do.

Sorry, the whole hypocrisy within ALPA really needles me.

 

[RJP]

LATEST NEWS
7:44 AM HST Friday

Hawaiian Airlines posts $6.2 mil profit in December


Hawaiian Airlines finished 2004 with $6.2 million operating profit in December, a 54 percent drop in profit from the $13.4 million profit in December 2003.

The airline's net loss for the month was $993,000.

Traditionally, the holiday season is a strong revenue generator for the airline.

"Hawaiian is usually profitable in December because of the holidays, but this year the combination of higher costs and more intense fare competition has taken its toll," said Trustee Joshua Gotbaum.

In December 2004, the airline earned $66.5 million revenue, compared to $68.6 million for the same month in 2003, according to the airlines' unaudited figures filed with the bankruptcy court.

Hawaiian added that it spent $5.2 million more on fuel resulting in its operating expenses going up to $60.3 million compared to $55.2 million in December 2003.

The airline's year-end numbers, which are not available yet, is likely to portray a net loss as Hawaiian accounts $129.4 million in bankruptcy reorganization costs.

At the end of 11 months, Hawaiian Airline's net loss was $84.1 million.

 

[HAL]

I'll echo Jim's comments. I admit that I'm surprised that the HAL MEC has shown the backbone it has, but very happy that it has. It seemed to be a somewhat 'dysfunctional' union for quite some time, but when push came to shove, they did good. Thank you all very much.

I'm lucky enough to have options, but most of the other furloughees from HAL don't. But I think most of us would absolutely agree with Jim that we'd rather sit out longer than have a piece of cr@p settlement, or worse yet, a 'two-tier' plan that messes with the junior pilots, shoved down our throats.

There has never yet been a 1113 motion actually make it to trial with a pilots union. This may be a first, but I think in the end, the HAL pilots will come out ahead.

In addition, this bit of news seems to make the company's case just a little weaker:

http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2005/01/17/daily31.html

HAL

 

[Erndogg]

Friday, January 21, 2005



Hawaiian acts
to force labor deal

The airline, seeking to exit
bankruptcy, says contract
negotiations with its pilots
union are at an impasse

Profit down 54 percent


By Dave Segal
[email protected]


Hawaiian Airlines declared yesterday it has reached an impasse with its pilots union and asked federal Bankruptcy Court to modify the pilots' contract.

Also yesterday, the company said its operating profit in December fell nearly 54 percent to $6.2 million from $13.4 million a year ago.

[url="http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/21/business/hal.gif"]http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/21/business/hal.gif[/url] The filing of the motion, which was expected, follows several months of negotiations between the two sides. Another meeting is scheduled for Tuesday in Los Angeles.

Hawaiian Airlines trustee Joshua Gotbaum said he felt he had no other choice than to proceed with the action after having reached agreements with the company's other five union groups. In a conference call between the main parties last Friday, the airline said it might file the motion this week.

"We would much rather negotiate an agreement -- as we've done with every other union -- than have the court impose one," Gotbaum said yesterday.

Jim Giddings, negotiating committee chairman for the Air Line Pilots Association's Hawaiian Airlines unit, said filing the motion could strain negotiations.

"We're disappointed that the company has filed this motion and we think that this would tend to make it more difficult to reach a negotiated resolution," Giddings said. "But nonetheless, we continue to be willing to sit down and meet with them to see if we can come to a consensual agreement."

Gotbaum said he didn't think it was fair to keep the other union groups in limbo while negotiations between the company and pilots dragged on.

"We filed the motion to create a deadline so that one way or another we can complete our labor negotiations and get Hawaiian out of bankruptcy," Gotbaum said.

The three-year contract that Hawaiian proposed in its motion offers 2 percent-a-year wage increases followed by an arbitration provision to adjust wages up or down depending on what the rest of the industry does. It offers profit sharing and includes a retirement plan that will keep the existing pension for pilots 55 and over. That plan guarantees pilots two-thirds of their final pay for life.

Pilots under 55 would have their current pension frozen but kept in place, and in the future would receive from the company 17 percent of their pay without having to make any contributions. The pilots would be responsible for deciding what funds to put the investments in as opposed to the current pension, where the company takes on the risk. Thus, under the company's proposed defined contribution plan, an under-55 pilot making $150,000 a year would receive $25,500 a year from the company.

However, the proposal also changes medical and other benefits that the company said brings deductible co-payments more in line with other airlines. It also includes contract changes that would establish productivity efficiencies the company said is similar to other airlines.

Gotbaum said the proposed contract preserves "the 40-plus percent wage increases the pilots have enjoyed" during the past four years. The company noted in its motion that captains flying trans-Pacific routes make $163 an hour.

"Unlike every other airline, we've proposed no wage cuts and no cost cuts," he said. "From the onset of negotiations, we have sought to keep costs from rising more, by moving to industry standard productivity and benefits. We think that's what Hawaiian needs to do at a time when every one of our competitors is cutting costs and lowering fares."

Giddings said the key issues involve retirement, disability, health care and compensation but declined to elaborate.

"I don't think that the differences are insurmountable but there seem to be some pretty strong philosophical differences that need to be addressed," he said.

Unless the pilots and the company come to an agreement, hearings on the motion will be heard Feb. 14 and 15 in Bankruptcy Court. The stalemate has resulted in the confirmation hearing of a trustee-backed reorganization plan being pushed back from Tuesday to Feb. 8. If no agreement is reached with the pilots before Feb. 8, then the hearing to confirm the plan would need to be delayed until after the Feb. 14-15 hearings.

"If we don't have an agreement on Feb. 14, the bankruptcy court will decide what the labor contracts are at Hawaiian Airlines," Gotbaum said. Hawaiian, which has been in bankruptcy since March 21, 2003, cannot exit until it has agreements in place with all its unions. The company previously reached tentative agreements with its flight attendants, clerical workers, mechanics, dispatchers and network engineers. The dispatchers and network engineers already have ratified new contracts while the mechanics and clerical workers were voting yesterday. The flight attendants' vote is scheduled for next week. All the agreements are contingent upon contracts being reached with all union groups -- with or without the court's help.


Hal,
Talking to a couple of our negotiators about what has transpired over the last couple of days I found that 1.) The company still is adament over the Medical retirement benefits lasting just 2 years and then your cut off!!!-THE MEC HAS STOOD STRONG ON THIS ONE-NO!!!
2.) Medical co-paymts increase- expect to see some sort of increase
3.) Company wants to pay override not only to IRO's but backside of the clock flying.
That's what I got today. I will post any more when I get the info.
They will be meeting in LA on Tuesday and I get the sense that the company does not want to leave it up to the judge since we posted a 6.2 mill profit for December.

 

[Sleepyhead]

The airline's year-end numbers, which are not available yet, is likelyto portray a net loss as Hawaiian accounts $129.4 million in bankruptcyreorganization costs.

At the end of 11 months, Hawaiian Airline's net loss was $84.1 million.

I thought everyone was saying HAL has been making money.
If the quote from the article above is accurate, the HAL pilots might have trouble in court.

 

[Jim]

HAL made an operational profit of $70 million last year. The $84.1 million lost is accounting smoke and mirrors. They take all the outstanding debt/claims against the company and bounce them against the operational profits. It's like saying someone who owes $200,000 on their house mortgage had a negative income of $150,0000 for the year because their job only pays them $50,000. Try selling that one to the IRS...

 

[Erndogg]

I thought everyone was saying HAL has been making money.
If the quote from the article above is accurate, the HAL pilots might have trouble in court.

Just another press release by mgmnt that hides the real facts. The claims in the BK case make it look like we lost $$$. RC aviation owes just about any meaningful claim (Boeing/Ansett). These claims amount to the tune of well over 100 mill. I believe 135 mill. The rest REAL type of claims are the IRS at 23 mill and thats it!!!
That's were these accountant types come up with this BS!!!Look at the REAL numbers-6.2 mill operational profit!!!
I would like to see RC aviation argue in front of Judge Faris that they need these concessions to survive-but by the way we own about every claim that is mentioned in this loss!!!! RC aviation I think knows this and will probably end up with some sort of agreement this week. If not, Then i would take my chances with the Judge.

 

[dash8driver]

Just another press release by mgmnt that hides the realfacts. The claims in the BK case make it look like we lost $$$. RCaviation owes just about any meaningful claim (Boeing/Ansett). Theseclaims amount to the tune of well over 100 mill. I believe 135 mill.The rest REAL type of claims are the IRS at 23 mill and thats it!!!
That's were these accountant types come up with this BS!!!Look at the REAL numbers-6.2 mill operational profit!!!
I would like to see RC aviation argue in front of Judge Faris that theyneed these concessions to survive-but by the way we own about everyclaim that is mentioned in this loss!!!! RC aviation I think knows thisand will probably end up with some sort of agreement this week. If not,Then i would take my chances with the Judge.

best of luck to you guys.. these corporate raiders are gettingreally old. it would be nice if the country could go back torunning businesses instead of raiding them.

 

[Erndogg]

Hawaiian had fullest planes in '04

Hawaiian Airlines had the fullest planes in the nation during every month of 2004, with an average load factor of 85.7 percent, up 5.4 percentage points from 2003.



Low-fare carrier JetBlue Airways was second with planes that were 83.2 percent full. Also, Hawaiian's total miles flown by paying passengers, or revenue passenger miles, rose 7.6 percent last year, the carrier said.


Another reason I would take my chances with Judge Faris.
Thanks for the support Dash8driver.

 

[HAL]

Things are getting more interesting by the day. I wonder how connected to reality the guys over at RC Aviation really are? Top load factor in the industry, making a profit despite horrendus fuel cost in December, and they still think they can squeeze more $ out of the unions that already gave??


Hawaiian Air faces union setback:

http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/25/business/story2.html

HAL

 

[Erndogg]

[url="http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/25/business/masthead_business.jpg"]http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/25/business/masthead_business.jpg[/url]​

Tuesday, January 25, 2005





Hawaiian Air
faces union setback

Two union groups fail to ratify
their modified contracts and a third
cancels a planned ratification vote

By Dave Segal
[email protected]


Hawaiian Airlines' tentative contract agreements with three union groups may be starting to unravel.

[url="http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/25/business/hal.gif"]http://starbulletin.com/2005/01/25/business/hal.gif[/url] The company, which earlier this month said it had reached tentative pacts with 89 percent of its unionized work force, announced yesterday that both the clerical and machinists units of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers failed to ratify modified three-year contract extensions.

In addition, the Hawaiian Airlines unit of the Association of Flight Attendants has canceled a planned ratification vote this week for its 824 members.

With negotiations set to resume in Los Angeles today with the Air Line Pilots Association unit, the company suddenly has reason to be concerned on multiple fronts with a confirmation hearing on its reorganization plan scheduled for Feb. 8.

Hawaiian Airlines trustee Joshua Gotbaum declined to comment yesterday and issued a two-sentence statement saying that the company is working with the IAM to negotiate revised agreements.

Randy Kauhane, assistant general chairman of the IAM unit representing 1,349 clerical workers, said he's surveying membership to determine what led the company's largest unit to reject the contract.

"The vote was very close," he said. "That's why we're trying to review the major concerns."

Neither the company nor the union would release the vote totals.

The clerical workers include employees who work in accounting, reservations, customer services and ramp services.

Jesse Ikei, who represents 371 mechanics, line servicemen, aircraft inspectors and cleaners, could not be reached for comment.

Sharon Soper, president of the local flight attendants union, said the vote of the 792 members is in the process of being rescheduled.

"We're waiting to see what the IAM is doing to do, if they're making any changes to their agreements and if they're going to send it back out for ratification," Soper said.

The rejections by the IAM units, the vote cancellation by the flight attendants and the ongoing negotiations with the 301-member pilots union leaves the airline with just 34 union employees who have ratified contracts out of 2,847 at the airline, or less than 2 percent.

Those employees comprise 26 dispatchers in the Transport Workers Union and eight in the Network Engineers union.

I think the other groups get it??? Looks like RC Aviations plans are getting derailed. Hopefully Konop can get his S___T! together and show the judge the $$$$.

The unions can only delay the Judge so long!!!

ALOHA

 

[Dan Roman]

I wouldn't put to much into the HARC deal. He has promised he had money numerous times and than nothing. He spoke to Ornstein from Mesa, which is like talking to Lorenzo and thinking it's OK. He proposed a 10% pay cut for all the employee's. He has canceled face to face meetings with the union and than said the union canceled, not him. He has almost zero employee support and has never so much as held any kind of a informational meeting with any employees. He has an "expert" opinion from a guy was a paralegal but very little airline expierence, who says Hawaiian should not fly the 767ER on 10 hr flights but used more from the west coast to the outer islands. Which is fine during the heavy travel periods, but money losers during the slow periods. While Australia, contrary to what HARC's "expert" says, is in fact doing very well. As a matter of fact, he says Hawaiians losses in the end of the year were proof that it's business plan was wrong. HAL than showed a 6 Mil operating profit in Dec. A lot of the losses were in fact one time charges preparing to come out of BK. Like paying in advance on charges that could have been spread out over a year.
It's being floated around by the usual emotional screamers and finger pointers (who time has proven wrong many times before) that Ranch is not putting up any money. Well that's news to Judge Farris and the creditors committee. Ranch seems to have their OK and the union cannot counter much of the bull that's being thrown around without weakening their negotiating position. I think you would find if the HARC proposal received the same kind of scrutiny as Ranch is getting you might not have the same opinion about HARC.