Hawaiian Pilot Throws Off Bankruptcy Trustee... Now That's Ball$y!

[ChinaClipper]

uuuhhhh......

China-

Did you vote no when you worked for Mesa?

...lets see, a bit of a Hijack, but lets see: I had 2 Chief Pilots looking for ANY reason to fire me, at least 1 Mesa hired-private investigation firm trying to find out my true identity, they tried to sabotageme going to my current employer, who saw it for the cheap shot it was, my LEC Rep was actually scared of me, I was almost attacked in the ALPA Road Show for calling them out for agreeing to this cra p, AND I was banned from the Mesa ALPA boards for being a troublemaker (read:fighting against their inability to fight the POS contract) That ain't the least of it; So how do you think I voted? BTW The phone voting system wouldn't allow you to vote NO more than once....I tried!

 

[Freight Dog]

ChinaClipper, you troublemaker you!

 

[MW44]

China-

Too bad there weren't more like you over at mesa!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Then you agree.....showboating.

I didn't say anything about showboating and no, I don't agree.

So the public took notice....how on earth is that relevant?...do you think they'll spontaneously rise up and launch a boycott of the airline or something?

No.

For your information, the public already thinks that airline pilots are paid well-above your average joe.

Thank you for the information.

The is FAR more worried about that and the best deal for tickets than they are for your retirement.

Huh?

I'm curious though, was there ever a time when this nation wasn't tired of corporate criminals?

No.

then I guess nobody told you that life doesn't always seem fair.

I had no idea. There goes my outlook on life.

 

[capt. megadeth]

"The nation is tired of corporate criminals lining their pockets off the backs of those who have put their lives into their work"

Hugh,
Very well said. Catyaaak must be butt buddies with someone in airline management...perhaps Siegel? Ornstein? The list goes on...

 

[Sleepyhead]

Hats off to Capt K.
And why is a court appointed trustee getting free travel? He is not an employee of HA.

FYI: He is not the first. A few years ago a CA at UA did the same thing to Wolf. The UA pilots gave him a plaque.


Chinaclipper
I knew you were trouble the first day I flew with you.

 

[CatYaaak]

"The nation is tired of corporate criminals lining their pockets off the backs of those who have put their lives into their work"

Hugh,
Very well said. Catyaaak must be butt buddies with someone in airline management...perhaps Siegel? Ornstein? The list goes on...

Spoken like a true product of the airline culture...."maturity" on parade. Chalk you up as another "professional" who "feels" that captain's authority is given for the purpose of being used as an outlet to vent emotions...or better yet, as extrapolated here...to save the world from corporate evil! No doubt you'll fit right in and make a fine airline captain, and gosh, I know I'll sleep better at night.

But do you often have these fantasies about these Siegel and Ornstein people?..because some do say there's a fine line between love and hate. Personally, I don't bat for the other team (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I guess by reading you're profile you wouldn't have to. But wow, you have to have a list to keep track?

Gee, now I'm being immature too! Scary that merely just visiting an airline thread, let alone working for one, will degrade one so quickly. I'm outta here!

 

[dash8driver]

I mean, if it's a crime, then by definition society doesn't approve. If it's not a crime and you're using the term loosely to describe something you find unfair from your perspective about our economic system, then I guess nobody told you that life doesn't always seem fair.

I guess you're upset about the rules governing captains authority and you think it unfair. its nice that you have an opinion about what happened, then again... you know what they say about opinions. since you werent there, and your connection to that group and their current situation is remote at best, i'd say you're trying your hand at speculation. if you're so certain of your speculation skills, you should take it to the stock market and buy some futures.

they were happy to see gutbomb come because adams was ousted and there was hope the company and the employees would have a chance. it turns out that he's no better than adams. you expect people to take it up the chute AGAIN and turn around, smile and say "thank you sir, may i have another"?

if he wasnt legal and within his rights to boot him off, he wouldnt have been able too. boo hoo. you're right, life isnt fair.. perhaps you should send your quote about it to gutbomb.

....back to you, hugh....

 

[ChinaClipper]

Mr. Yakk, you seem so uninformed......

Spoken like a true product of the airline culture...."maturity" on parade.
But do you often have these fantasies about these Siegel and Ornstein people?..because some do say there's a fine line between love and hate.

From reading your quotes, I get the feeling your knowledge of airline labor relations is something heard about and not necessarily experienced. I can assure you that the "fantasies" of Ornstein were not imagined, the hate is earned as well. I can assure you that I was basically a happy go lucky camper the day I joined and the day I left Mesa. The 5 years in between were not the most joyful ones. Since you seem a bit short on enough facts to comment on these matters, I'll give ya a few. Unions and the "maturity" wouldn't be an issue if the default setting of most managers is "If ya don't like our shafting, greive it." Pilots quality of life issues get flushed like used snot rags because airline managers couldn't staff, organize or run an functional company. EVERYTHING was, and still is, done on the fly and in a constant state of reactive turmoil(Read "cost efficient to management, look at the 1900 CLT crash, poor MX) This mentality made predictability in your life impossible, just so number crunchers could feel good. The result was ZERO ability to plan your life, or be a meaningful part of anothers, all while people like Ornstein collect 15 motorcycles, yachts and resort vacation homes, all while you spend 30 hrs in XNA at the industrys LOWEST PAYSCALE. Maybe the XNA layover had to be done, but the managers were completely unwilling to try and explain that, or any other life-destroying issue or even try to make it unnecessary.They did it KNOWING what it did to us! We spent HOURS explaining these things thinking they were the result of bad info, why else would ANYONE do such crappy things to anyone? Yeah, right... Mesa managed to screw people over with such alarming regularity one would guess it HAD to be planned. This "screw them I need stock options" mentality is WAY to prevelent in this business. HA was sent into BK not because it was failing, but the same mangers who signed expensive aircraft leases one day, wanted relief for their bad decisons by screwing Boeing and the lessors, the next. More "hurray for me, and screw you". The stench of Adams government backed stock repurchuse was enough to get a federal judge to remove him from his job as head of HA Holdings. Was the judge duped by union propaganda? Hardly. Gutbomb has stepped in done little except dragged out BK so he can collect a big salary and expense account....and pump up his position while the HA pilot pension goes underfunded and future prospects remain uncertain. Nice,huh? Well, this rant is a bit long but ya get the picture. Airline greed is a dysfunctional byproduct of an otherwise good concept. My dad always commented on such BS by saying that "Corporations are ment to be run by moral people as a reflection of the pride of being a honest person, not by taking advantage of its shortcomings to enrichen yourself OR destroy the business" A concept rarely found in airlines, the ones that abide by such thinking, prosper WITH employess, not in spite of them. Capt. K put his foot down and God help us if we condemn his outrage. Hey Herb, how about a new job in da islands?

 

[HAL]

Nice post!

China Clipper,

Well said! Thanks for the intelligent, well though out response. A lot of people wish for a 'perfect world' where corporations are well run, employees respected, and profits shared. As you pointed out that is the rarity, not the usual. If this was the 'perfect world' we wouldn't need unions or have labor/management problems. But it's not, and we have to deal with the concequences. It is an unfortunate part of the real world that management often stoops to painful or harmful methods to get what they want. Sometimes, employees fight back. If you haven't been in the industry for a while, or studied the history of airlines, it's very difficult to feel the pain of working so hard for a job only to have it blown out from under you because of managerial greed.



Welcome to the real world CatYaaak.



HAL

 

[CatYaaak]

China Clipper,
If you haven't been in the industry for a while, or studied the history of airlines, it's very difficult to feel the pain of working so hard for a job only to have it blown out from under you because of managerial greed.

Welcome to the real world CatYaaak.
HAL

Like I said before, I've been in the position of flying, working hard, for an airline that was driven to bankrupcy..then out of existance..by incompetent, greedy, self-serving senior management, not for lack of passengers. Poof!....gone...on the street. I've "been there", as captain, with those responsible for the slow hemmoraging death of a good company as passengers. Ive been in the same exact position as Captain-whatever enough times, with the SAME LOATHING for the same type of HMIC, to form a justifiable opinion. I suggest you save your patronizing "wecome to the real world" for someone who hasn't been there. Or perhaps you just can't handle that someone else (one who has) holds a different opinion of what is considered professional conduct in this particular matter of having as pax people who we may consider a threat to our jobs, but aren't one to the aircraft, pax, or crew.

Anyone can act like a "professional" when things are easy. It's when things are going to sh!t that maintaining the integrity of the position itself, living up to it's responsiblities, gives actual meaning to the word. It's all you have left. It's a GIVEN that these managerial a$$holes exist, always have and always will, and can be ruinous to any one of us. I also happen to believe that maintaining the integrity of our position trancends even their a$$holery.

So blather on about the Ornsteins or Lorenzos of this business...if it makes some feel better for me not joining in their applause, accuse me of being a management lackey...whatever. My opinion remains however, that this imiplied-threat/mis-use the Captain's Authority doesn't live up to the professional integrity standard. It's not given to us, it's given to the position we occupy, for use by a reasoned Captain. That's a far cry from what's here... someone's own personal use by self-admitted Mr. Emotional. Either act like a Captain or get out of seat until you can. Professional integrity demands it.

How sad that the mere presence of one of these weasels on board could weaken his or anyone's, or worse yet, be construed as "ballsy". "Ballsy"?..what a joke...it was petty. Pettiness should be beneath this profession, and certainly beneath his position. THIS is my rational for critisizing the Captains actions, but if you want to pretend it somehow means I'm defending the a$$holes and corporate ills inherent in the airline industry, then I guess you're just as disinclined to try and to rise above it.

So wallow in it... rah rah all you want. Pretend it makes a difference. Whine away, bump all the execs and managers with sophmoric glee for anything you deem to be "injustice", and form an even larger "Oh Yay We're Getting Them Back!" circle-jerk. I won't be joining you.

 

[CatYaaak]

From reading your quotes, I get the feeling your knowledge of airline labor relations is something heard about and not necessarily experienced.

I can assure you that the "fantasies" of Ornstein were not imagined, the hate is earned as well........

...Capt. K put his foot down and God help us if we condemn his outrage.

I've experienced them and the effects first hand..up until the airline I worked for shut it's doors.

Since the poster I responded to referenced me as a "butt buddy", my term was referring in kind to the sexual type she's apparently having. I have no doubt that in business or messing up lives, this Ornstein guy is a reality, but that's not the point.

While on duty, in the role as Captain, Mr. K has no right to let "outrage" (or angst, or depression) get the better of him, especially if it's not a tangible disruption or threat to the aircraft.

 

[Publishers]

safe

Let's hope the bankruptcy judge does not let his angst, depression, or emotional outrage does not lead him to shut down the airline because he does not feel it is safe to operate it.

 

[AAflyer]

The BK judge can't do that, he does not have the ability to say I don't feel safe operating this aircraft. He is not the captain. Guess what, there are still things the captain has final authority over or any pilot for that matter.


Go pick up your AIM and read about it, first put down that book "union busting 101".

AA

 

[English]

It appears the bounce off the aircraft worked...


LATEST NEWS
4:16 PM HST Wednesday
Hawaiian ready to resume pilots' pension plan payments

[font=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Hawaiian Airlines and the Air Line Pilots Association want the company to resume payments to its pilots' pension plan, according to a joining court filing on Wednesday.

The airline deferred payments last year, with the court's permission, and would now pay back the $10.5 million it owes in back payment -- $7 million in pensions and $3.5 million as retention bonus for the pilots.

The U.S. Bankruptcy Court will hear the issue July 16.

The airline said it needed to keep the cash as a precautionary measure.

"Now that it's clear we will not have to terminate the plan in order for Hawaiian to survive we would resume making the contributions we owe," said Joshua Gotbaum, the court-appointed airline trustee.

The union adds that this is good news for its 300 pilots working at Hawaiian Airlines.

"We are hopeful the court will see the wisdom of the company making good on their promises to pilots, and that the motion will be approved immediately," said Capt. Jim Giddings, chairman of the Hawaiian Airlines' unit of the pilots' union.


[/font]

© 2004 American City Business Journals Inc.

 

[HAL]

Surprise, surprise...

Hmmmm.....a connection?

Like I said, welcome to the real world!!!!!!!



HAL

 

[capt. megadeth]

"While on duty, in the role as Captain, Mr. K has no right to let "outrage" (or angst, or depression) get the better of him, especially if it's not a tangible disruption or threat to the aircraft"

While on duty, in the role of management, these a$$holes have no right to let their greed take over and do with your retirement what they want. (Get another 8 million dollar house, buy a Porche, etc.)

__________________

 

[CatYaaak]

Hmmmm.....a connection?

Like I said, welcome to the real world!!!!!!!



HAL

You ARE living in a dream world son.

 

[Publishers]

BK Judges

AAFlyer Read what it said, he did have that kind of authority.

 

[TonyC]

CatYaaak,

You argue whether Capt K. had the right to bump the passenger, and you've questioned his professionalism is doing so.

The very fact that he DID bump the passenger, and the passenger did, in fact, deplane, is evidence that he could. His Company might try to argue that he did not, and try to fire him. His Union will then fight for his absolute right to exercise his Captain's Authority. I predict his PIC Authority will be upheld.

As to whether it was professional, well, we'll have our opinions, won't we? It is a true professional that realizes his own limitations and has the courage to say "No," to stop the chain of events before they lead to an accident. Were he fatigued, or in any way physically unfit to begin the trip, we would all agree that it would be very UNprofessional to continue. This Captain, having been apprised of the fact that this man who was attempting to destroy his very future, realized that having the man just a few rows behind him might distract him from his professional duties in much the same way as fatigue, illnes, or personal problems might have distracted him. The only cure for fatigue is rest. The cure for illness often requires medication and time. Personal problems involve time and interaction and often professional help. The problem Captain K. faced that morning required only the removal of a single passenger.

I'd much rather have him remove that single passenger than have his mind distracted as a small engine anomaly during takeoff roll might tip him to a potential catastrophic event in the ensuing seconds. Where would you want YOUR Captain's mind to be?