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Have you earned your Stripes?
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Who cares
I don't care how many stripes I wear. I don't really care how many stripes the other guy wears, either. At my company, it is policy that everybody wears 4 stripes. Some people have a major problem with this - mostly very inexperienced, first time Captains. Then there are some First Officers that feel that they are ENTITLED to 4 stripes because they are typed - although they are not PIC qualified.
The bottom line is...does it really matter? I vote that we all ditch the uniforms and go with Dockers and polo shirts. Of course, I can imagine that some people would then sew stripes onto the shoulders.
I don't care how many stripes I wear. I don't really care how many stripes the other guy wears, either. At my company, it is policy that everybody wears 4 stripes. Some people have a major problem with this - mostly very inexperienced, first time Captains. Then there are some First Officers that feel that they are ENTITLED to 4 stripes because they are typed - although they are not PIC qualified.
The bottom line is...does it really matter? I vote that we all ditch the uniforms and go with Dockers and polo shirts. Of course, I can imagine that some people would then sew stripes onto the shoulders.
saabcaptain
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Most airlines do it in a simple and fair fashion (mine included)...
Pilots qualified as Captains and listed as Captains on that months bid lines wear 4 stripes no matter if they are downflying in a pinch in the right seat. If a Captain is forced to bid as a FO due to cutbacks etc. and can not hold a Captain line they will begin wearing 3 stripes again. Check airman always wear 4 stripes regardless of seat position.
However I strongly believe that although this is a good system and typical, I can't understand those who get so "disturbed" by anything different. Who cares about the stripes etc. so much that it becomes a major issue and an issue of self worth?
Pilots qualified as Captains and listed as Captains on that months bid lines wear 4 stripes no matter if they are downflying in a pinch in the right seat. If a Captain is forced to bid as a FO due to cutbacks etc. and can not hold a Captain line they will begin wearing 3 stripes again. Check airman always wear 4 stripes regardless of seat position.
However I strongly believe that although this is a good system and typical, I can't understand those who get so "disturbed" by anything different. Who cares about the stripes etc. so much that it becomes a major issue and an issue of self worth?
SDF2BUF2MCO
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Maybe at some p135 and fractional companies both guys wear 4 stripes because the company advertises that all the pilots are qualified captains, and that is what the customer expects to see.
A few years ago I saw an exec.jet crew with the 4 on the right 3 on the left. I think they were goofing around though.
I haven't seen any 121 companies with nonstandard shoulder boards, yet. I don't spend much time around 1900s in FL though.
ps- the epaulets are the part that you button to your shirt, the shoulder boards have the stripes on them.
A few years ago I saw an exec.jet crew with the 4 on the right 3 on the left. I think they were goofing around though.
I haven't seen any 121 companies with nonstandard shoulder boards, yet. I don't spend much time around 1900s in FL though.
ps- the epaulets are the part that you button to your shirt, the shoulder boards have the stripes on them.
Hawker rider
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We used to fly with casual outfits.(135-lear)
Until we paired a young captain with a completely ignorant 50-year old co-pilot who looked nice and sofisticated in this outfit, so all line guys started asking him about fuelorders etc. he actually gave them a very "intelligent" answer too. We just got caught with our pants down a few times since he had no clue we couldn't land at max landing weight with a very short runway...
Needless to say we brought the uniforms back, no tie but with epaulets and actually now it's a little better. Still get a lot of people ask questions to my co-pilots who , unfortunately still happen to be VERY ignorous to jet flying.
M
Until we paired a young captain with a completely ignorant 50-year old co-pilot who looked nice and sofisticated in this outfit, so all line guys started asking him about fuelorders etc. he actually gave them a very "intelligent" answer too. We just got caught with our pants down a few times since he had no clue we couldn't land at max landing weight with a very short runway...
Needless to say we brought the uniforms back, no tie but with epaulets and actually now it's a little better. Still get a lot of people ask questions to my co-pilots who , unfortunately still happen to be VERY ignorous to jet flying.
M
A Squared
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As long as this has degegenerated into a thread on English, I thought I'd throw this in:
>>>>>>and I could care less if someone else misspells either
I always wonder about this, the words "I could care less" mean that actually you *do* care. If you really don't care then you "couldn't care less". Typos I can understand, I make a bunch of them myself, and I'm not that hot at spelling, but I can't for the life of me understand why people use words which mean the exact opposite of what they're trying to say.
Regarding the stripes thing, before reading this thread, If someone asked me how many stripes a captain wore, I probably couldn't have supplied the correct answer off the top of my head. In a few weeks, I will have probably forgotten again. I think that the vast majority of people on this planet, and a fair number of people in aviation don't spend a lot of time thinking about how many stripes a pilot wears
>>>>>>and I could care less if someone else misspells either
I always wonder about this, the words "I could care less" mean that actually you *do* care. If you really don't care then you "couldn't care less". Typos I can understand, I make a bunch of them myself, and I'm not that hot at spelling, but I can't for the life of me understand why people use words which mean the exact opposite of what they're trying to say.
Regarding the stripes thing, before reading this thread, If someone asked me how many stripes a captain wore, I probably couldn't have supplied the correct answer off the top of my head. In a few weeks, I will have probably forgotten again. I think that the vast majority of people on this planet, and a fair number of people in aviation don't spend a lot of time thinking about how many stripes a pilot wears
I've noted a sentiment come up several times, and it's not an uncommon one in the working world, that there can only be one "captain." I wholeheartedly disagree.
Perhaps that should be better stated as there can only be one ego on board.
There more qualified individuals on deck, the better. Where the secret ingredient comes in is maturity and the ability to follow protocol. If one is qualified as PIC in the airplane, but assigned to an SIC position, then there's no harm until one can't stay within the bounds of one's assignment.
I know a lot of captains who don't make very good copilots. They do fine when they're driving the boat...but put them in the right seat, and it's a hardship to them. That very fact, despite being technically proficient in the left seat, makes them dangerous.
The ability to work as a team, fully, is critical in the cockpit. There is nothing wrong with having fully qualified individuals (no matter what kind of girly lace they wear on their shoulders) in the cockpit. There is everything wrong with having individuals there who can't do the job they're assigned, and who can't fulfill their role. If someone with four stripes can't do this, then that person is just as worthless as one with no stripes...perhaps worse.
I've met a lot of captains who see the cockpit as a one man show in which they are courteous enough to allow a copilot to play. Such folks have no business in the cockpit. An essential ingredient to being a good captain is being a good copilot. One can never do a satisfactory job in the left seat unless one fully understands the right seat. It's that simple. Accordingly, one must be able to transition back and forth effortlessly.
Someone mentioned seeing a 135 operator with three stripes in the left seat and four in the right. This is probably because it's common to alternate every leg, and often this is done by switching seats, especially for someone who's preparing to be upgraded.
Perhaps that should be better stated as there can only be one ego on board.
There more qualified individuals on deck, the better. Where the secret ingredient comes in is maturity and the ability to follow protocol. If one is qualified as PIC in the airplane, but assigned to an SIC position, then there's no harm until one can't stay within the bounds of one's assignment.
I know a lot of captains who don't make very good copilots. They do fine when they're driving the boat...but put them in the right seat, and it's a hardship to them. That very fact, despite being technically proficient in the left seat, makes them dangerous.
The ability to work as a team, fully, is critical in the cockpit. There is nothing wrong with having fully qualified individuals (no matter what kind of girly lace they wear on their shoulders) in the cockpit. There is everything wrong with having individuals there who can't do the job they're assigned, and who can't fulfill their role. If someone with four stripes can't do this, then that person is just as worthless as one with no stripes...perhaps worse.
I've met a lot of captains who see the cockpit as a one man show in which they are courteous enough to allow a copilot to play. Such folks have no business in the cockpit. An essential ingredient to being a good captain is being a good copilot. One can never do a satisfactory job in the left seat unless one fully understands the right seat. It's that simple. Accordingly, one must be able to transition back and forth effortlessly.
Someone mentioned seeing a 135 operator with three stripes in the left seat and four in the right. This is probably because it's common to alternate every leg, and often this is done by switching seats, especially for someone who's preparing to be upgraded.
SDdriver
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A note on what Avbug said,
One of the best things that happened to me at one job was to sit in the right seat even though I was hired as Captain. I was hired as Captain, from the street, typed, and paid as Captain. For the first month though I flew the right seat, then started flying the left. GREAT benifit, because I could do both jobs. If I was needed to fly the right seat, so be it. Also I had once, an FO that said, without knowing, you don't know what it is like to sit in this seat, you never had to, Oh contrair (sp?) I said, I can sit in your seat and do your job all day long, because I have, so I understand what you are feeling and what you are going through. He looked at me like, wow, ok, cool, you know what it is like to be me. It is a very good thing to be able to sit and do both jobs if you are a Captain, that is a benifit for your CREW, but when sitting either seat, do the responsibilities of that seat and be a CREW, doesn't matter about bars.
Later..
SD
One of the best things that happened to me at one job was to sit in the right seat even though I was hired as Captain. I was hired as Captain, from the street, typed, and paid as Captain. For the first month though I flew the right seat, then started flying the left. GREAT benifit, because I could do both jobs. If I was needed to fly the right seat, so be it. Also I had once, an FO that said, without knowing, you don't know what it is like to sit in this seat, you never had to, Oh contrair (sp?) I said, I can sit in your seat and do your job all day long, because I have, so I understand what you are feeling and what you are going through. He looked at me like, wow, ok, cool, you know what it is like to be me. It is a very good thing to be able to sit and do both jobs if you are a Captain, that is a benifit for your CREW, but when sitting either seat, do the responsibilities of that seat and be a CREW, doesn't matter about bars.
Later..
SD
dmspilot00
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I think the pilots should wear the number of stripes that correspond with what role they are assigned. Just as you cannot have two PICs on a flight, you can't have two captains*, and shouldn't have multiple people wearing the same number of stripes.
*I'm not saying you can't have two people that are captains, but that you can't have two people acting as the captain of the flight.
Just my two cents from an objective viewpoint.
*I'm not saying you can't have two people that are captains, but that you can't have two people acting as the captain of the flight.
Just my two cents from an objective viewpoint.
banned username 2
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One school I worked for, for a VERY short time had these:
Gold with white shirt:
1-stripe = new CFI
2-stripe = part 141 approved CFI
3-stripe = CFII
4-stripe = MEI & CCFI
Silver with blue shirt:
1-stripe = instructor student
2-stripe = private student
3-stripe = instrument student
Polo shirt with school logo:
Owner and administration
I was their instrument ground instructor, so I wore three stripes. I told them they could buy the **** shirts and stripes when they wanted me to change into a blue shirt with one silver stripe for the flight training I was doing with them.
The next flight school job required a suit. I wore the only suit I had with the only decent shirts I had, the pilot shirts. At the end of the first day the owner handed me a $100 and told me to go buy some good shirts.
The pilot shirts served well as shop rags.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
SkyWestCRJPilot
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I was working on my CFI before I even knew what the different number of stripes meant. I imagine 99% of the flying public doesn't know the difference either nor cares to count stripes. To them the captain is the older of the two (or three) pilots, that's all. Since I have such a baby face I'll probably still be the "copilot" 20 years after I upgrade. Have any of you heard passengers say, "Are you even old enough to drive yet?"
ShawnC
Skirts Will Rise
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The Flight Safety Academy requires their students to wear Uniforms complete with stripes.
Thats about all that is intelligent I can add: Though thanks to Fatburger I am thinking about buying a Pilot Shirt complete with 2 pairs of Captains bars (one gold, other silver) and demand to be called El Presidente when I fly.
Thats about all that is intelligent I can add: Though thanks to Fatburger I am thinking about buying a Pilot Shirt complete with 2 pairs of Captains bars (one gold, other silver) and demand to be called El Presidente when I fly.
Frac Daddy
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I can't believe I am being drawn into this discussion, but I can't resist. I see the main arguement for those that think only the PIC should weat four stripes along these lines: Having the FO wear less stripes enhances the command structure in the cockpit. So if there is a controlling, overbearing, wanna-be captain that is my FO, all I have to do is wear more stripes than him and he will all of a sudden change his personality. NOT! A FO that is a true professional will know who is PIC and will respect that wether or not he is wearing three stripes, four stripes or a feather boa. For the most part, my SICs recognize that I am the captain even though we both wear four stripes. I think the captains that complain that their SICs wear the same amount of stripes are not concerened about the crew not recognizing that they are the captain; but rather they want to be recognized as "The MAN" in the FBO/terminal. (Can you say, "compensation"?)
LA Confidential,
Speaking of compensating: I, too, got out my ruler. But, alas, I only measured 5 inches. Therefore, I am going to wear six stripes on my shoulders and beat up three of my neighbors to make up for it.
LA Confidential,
Speaking of compensating: I, too, got out my ruler. But, alas, I only measured 5 inches. Therefore, I am going to wear six stripes on my shoulders and beat up three of my neighbors to make up for it.
JBcrjca
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Ok, so hotel bellhops wear 2, 3 or 4 stripes...and Skycaps wear FO hats; sometimes even with the same braids on the visors as captains. How do we know the rank of the guys carrying the passengers bags around?
And for the guys that put the shoulder harnesses under the bars to keep them clean... you've got too much spare time. I wear my shoulder harness for only a few minutes per flight (since the FARs allow it) and I don't care if the bars get grungy. In fact, I kinda like the dirty, seasoned look. My brother keeps telling me to get new ones, but I don't really want to look like a shiny new pilot. What a silly subject though!
And for the guys that put the shoulder harnesses under the bars to keep them clean... you've got too much spare time. I wear my shoulder harness for only a few minutes per flight (since the FARs allow it) and I don't care if the bars get grungy. In fact, I kinda like the dirty, seasoned look. My brother keeps telling me to get new ones, but I don't really want to look like a shiny new pilot. What a silly subject though!
Gulfstream 200
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banned username 2
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Counselair
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A Squared,
"I could care less" means I could care less than I do know. In other words I do care slightly but if you keep bugging me about it I'll show you how much less I could care. The opposite of love is not hate. Hate implys caring. The true opposite is complete indifference. Therefore, "to care less" hints that I could be indifferent, but I care slightly.
Back to the subject, the only time I wear my uniform anymore, stripes and all, is to the bars. Chick magnet and the press loves me.
Counselair
"I could care less" means I could care less than I do know. In other words I do care slightly but if you keep bugging me about it I'll show you how much less I could care. The opposite of love is not hate. Hate implys caring. The true opposite is complete indifference. Therefore, "to care less" hints that I could be indifferent, but I care slightly.
Back to the subject, the only time I wear my uniform anymore, stripes and all, is to the bars. Chick magnet and the press loves me.
Counselair
LimoDriver
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Who cares?? I thought I got away from all this rank BS when I left the military!!!!
In my company, every pilot is a Captain, and we do not wear any rank on our shoulders. One of the captains will be designated PIC for the trip, the other designated SIC, usually by seniority in the department. With a few exceptions, nobody really cares if they are designated PIC or not!
Frankly, I'd just as soon be SIC as PIC. The pay is the same!
We wear golf shirts and slacks during the summer months -- much more better!!
My $ 0.02
In my company, every pilot is a Captain, and we do not wear any rank on our shoulders. One of the captains will be designated PIC for the trip, the other designated SIC, usually by seniority in the department. With a few exceptions, nobody really cares if they are designated PIC or not!
Frankly, I'd just as soon be SIC as PIC. The pay is the same!
We wear golf shirts and slacks during the summer months -- much more better!!
My $ 0.02
Don't really care but....
Since we have alot of downgraded guys at Allegheny (me included, with more downgrades to come soon) I though I'd chime in.
because we have the "luxury" of being WO we follow the same crapola that mainline puts out.
Official Policy from the FOM: downgraded capts wear FO uniform except that they may wear the Capt blazer with 4 stripes. some other bla bla bla that nobody gives a rats a$$ about.
I see alot of my downgraded bro's wearing capt stuff for one reason or another. Personally I wear my capt eppulletts (sp) just besause I can't find my FO eppuletts and am not spending the $$$ for new ones. If the co. wants to split for them then fine but it ain't my fault I'm in the rt seat and I've already given enough $$ back to U. I was thinking of taking a black marker and colori9ng in one stripe on each side kind of like the black badge cops and others wear when somethin bad happens. Anyway who cares ? Shorts/jeans and a T-shirt are fine with me, same goes for a bathrobe and boxers, the offical uniform of my days off, shaving optional. Hott chicks should always wear mini skirts and boob shirts no matter what position/job they hold.
Since we have alot of downgraded guys at Allegheny (me included, with more downgrades to come soon) I though I'd chime in.
because we have the "luxury" of being WO we follow the same crapola that mainline puts out.
Official Policy from the FOM: downgraded capts wear FO uniform except that they may wear the Capt blazer with 4 stripes. some other bla bla bla that nobody gives a rats a$$ about.
I see alot of my downgraded bro's wearing capt stuff for one reason or another. Personally I wear my capt eppulletts (sp) just besause I can't find my FO eppuletts and am not spending the $$$ for new ones. If the co. wants to split for them then fine but it ain't my fault I'm in the rt seat and I've already given enough $$ back to U. I was thinking of taking a black marker and colori9ng in one stripe on each side kind of like the black badge cops and others wear when somethin bad happens. Anyway who cares ? Shorts/jeans and a T-shirt are fine with me, same goes for a bathrobe and boxers, the offical uniform of my days off, shaving optional. Hott chicks should always wear mini skirts and boob shirts no matter what position/job they hold.
SquirrelDog
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ha ha, if no one really cares then why so many comments?
I don't care when it comes to what someone wears in the cockpit, the PIC and the rest of the crew know what their positions are, I agree with AVBUG.
SkywestCRJPilot thats funny. I look young also, and fly with a FO that is Twice my age. We have the best time. We get off the plane and all the ground crews are talking to him about what is going on, I just say, I will be inside "Dad" and walk away.
I have seen Bell Hops with 8 stripes, double captain!
By the way, this discussion was meant to be about all the TOOLS that walk around terminals/FBO wearing tons of bars for the hell of it. The professional environment of the cockpit does not pertain to this discussion if one is a true professional.
If it doens't mean anything, then why do pilots wear them, and I don't see any military personal walking around with Captain bars when they are GI's, even when given a demotion. Isn't this where the uniforms originated?
It is a matter of diluting the representation of a symbol of respect. If everyone and their dog wears 4 bars then why wear them, thats my only point.
Everyone can go around wearing police uniforms too, with guns and badges and driving cars with flashy lights. Why not, who cares!
Squirreldog.
I don't care when it comes to what someone wears in the cockpit, the PIC and the rest of the crew know what their positions are, I agree with AVBUG.
SkywestCRJPilot thats funny. I look young also, and fly with a FO that is Twice my age. We have the best time. We get off the plane and all the ground crews are talking to him about what is going on, I just say, I will be inside "Dad" and walk away.
I have seen Bell Hops with 8 stripes, double captain!
By the way, this discussion was meant to be about all the TOOLS that walk around terminals/FBO wearing tons of bars for the hell of it. The professional environment of the cockpit does not pertain to this discussion if one is a true professional.
If it doens't mean anything, then why do pilots wear them, and I don't see any military personal walking around with Captain bars when they are GI's, even when given a demotion. Isn't this where the uniforms originated?
It is a matter of diluting the representation of a symbol of respect. If everyone and their dog wears 4 bars then why wear them, thats my only point.
Everyone can go around wearing police uniforms too, with guns and badges and driving cars with flashy lights. Why not, who cares!
Squirreldog.
A Squared
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Counselair,
Well that's certainly one bizarre and convoluted rationalization.. but that is often what happens when someone tries to explain something which is fundamentally illogical. So....let me get this straight, in order to show that you really don't care, you're stating that actually you *do* care????.....uh-huh, that makes sense.
Perhaps "I couldn't care less" would be a more direct and logical way to express your indifference.
Well that's certainly one bizarre and convoluted rationalization.. but that is often what happens when someone tries to explain something which is fundamentally illogical. So....let me get this straight, in order to show that you really don't care, you're stating that actually you *do* care????.....uh-huh, that makes sense.
Perhaps "I couldn't care less" would be a more direct and logical way to express your indifference.
SquirrelDog,
It looks to me that you and maybe a few others are the ones that care, the rest are just offering their opinion/view just for conversation or to add their insight or whatever. Although we'd have to question their decision making skills most of us here wouldn't care if our capt, fo, fa or whoever showed in a banana hammock, flip-flops and sunglasses.
OK the horse is dead, we beat that one, next topic. May I suggest hamburgers, since I'm hungry for a nice big jucey bacon and chedder cheese with onions burger at this time. Wish I had a house with a big deck and grill. O well, a poor F.O. can dream can't he? And don't forget hot chickies hangin out on that deck also.
It looks to me that you and maybe a few others are the ones that care, the rest are just offering their opinion/view just for conversation or to add their insight or whatever. Although we'd have to question their decision making skills most of us here wouldn't care if our capt, fo, fa or whoever showed in a banana hammock, flip-flops and sunglasses.
OK the horse is dead, we beat that one, next topic. May I suggest hamburgers, since I'm hungry for a nice big jucey bacon and chedder cheese with onions burger at this time. Wish I had a house with a big deck and grill. O well, a poor F.O. can dream can't he? And don't forget hot chickies hangin out on that deck also.
At Mesaba, when one upgrades to captain, you get the ever popular epaulet that has three stripes with a fourth one done up in duct tape. See, we here at Mesaba must upgrade and then downgrade 150-200 pilots because we have no clue what kind of staffing model to run.
At Mesaba, we have found that this type of insignia of rank is the best since one never truly knows what pay scale that they might be on from month to month.
And for those that are captains/IP's that fly in the right seat while there are FO's furloughed and the company claims that they are in a shortage mode......you can get your coward ass out of the airline industry.
At Mesaba, we have found that this type of insignia of rank is the best since one never truly knows what pay scale that they might be on from month to month.
And for those that are captains/IP's that fly in the right seat while there are FO's furloughed and the company claims that they are in a shortage mode......you can get your coward ass out of the airline industry.
furloboy
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You know what? 99% of the flying public doesn't know or care what the stripes mean. Hell, after 20+ years of flying in the military--with countless friends in the airline business--I had to ask the uniform shop which stripes I needed to buy when I was going through FE training with Delta. Right now, for the life of me, I can't remember if it was two or three stripes.
And I didn't care as long as the paycheck kept coming.
Not true, the paycheck stopped and I still don't care.
Regards to all,
Furloboy
And I didn't care as long as the paycheck kept coming.
Not true, the paycheck stopped and I still don't care.
Regards to all,
Furloboy
enigma
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A real pilot can't wait to discard the strips ( and all other identification) as soon as he gets away from the airplane. Heck, I even take off the boards, assuming that I could leave the hat in the airplane, as soon as I leave the boarding area.
I'd rather wear boots, jeans and a feed store cap. But the company says to wear shoulderboards so I try and wear the complete uniform. When downgraded after Sept, 11, I still wore four stripes because they were what I had, if the company had wanted me to wear three, they would have provided a new hat, jacket and stripes. I don't really care.
It is my understanding that the companys want us to wear the traditional uniform in order to allow the pax to find the Boss in an emergency. I think that it is just so the TSA doesn't have to work too hard in finding us, the number one suspects
enigma
I'd rather wear boots, jeans and a feed store cap. But the company says to wear shoulderboards so I try and wear the complete uniform. When downgraded after Sept, 11, I still wore four stripes because they were what I had, if the company had wanted me to wear three, they would have provided a new hat, jacket and stripes. I don't really care.
It is my understanding that the companys want us to wear the traditional uniform in order to allow the pax to find the Boss in an emergency. I think that it is just so the TSA doesn't have to work too hard in finding us, the number one suspects
enigma
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