Has this ever happened at your carrier?

[Taildragon]

So, your an FFDO and jumpseating to work and the captain that is flying your commuter flight (online commute) denies you the cockpit jumpseat because he or she is uncomfortable with having a weapon in the cockpit. My question is first, should you be punished for not making your show and second, does the captain have legal right to do so (PIC Authority) or is he or she breaking federal law. (just because he or she feels uncomfortable) Thanks

 

[ALGFLYR]

So, your an FFDO and jumpseating to work and the captain that is flying your commuter flight (online commute) denies you the cockpit jumpseat because he or she is uncomfortable with having a weapon in the cockpit. My question is first, should you be punished for not making your show and second, does the captain have legal right to do so (PIC Authority) or is he or she breaking federal law. (just because he or she feels uncomfortable) Thanks

Tha Captain has absolute authority to deny the jumpseat to anyone, regardless of the reason. I'm not saying it was right, but definitely not illegal.

 

[Taildragon]

Can he refuse a secret service agent boarding because he/she is armed?

 

[AQ PILOT]

Tha Captain has absolute authority to deny the jumpseat to anyone, regardless of the reason. I'm not saying it was right, but definitely not illegal.

That is absolutely untrue. The Captain can not deny you a jumpseat for being an FFDO, period. If (s)he does, they better be smart enough not to say that is why they are doing it. They can come up with a myriad of reasons not to let you sit in the jump of course, but if they say it's because you're an FFDO, they are gonna get hammered.

As for the rest of it, your company probably knows better than to fight that battle with you for missing your scheduled check in when you were denied travel because you were an FFDO. If this happened to you, you should definitely report it.

 

[Dan Roman]

Aq is correct.

 

[Slippery Mick]

Aq is correct.

Agreed. If you allow the person in the jumpseat, but then exclude them because he or she is an FFDO, it is a federal violation.

 

[Taildragon]

Thanks AQ,thats what I thought.
No it wasn't me, however it was a Captain trying to get to work, and another Captain that had these (feelings). Still waiting to here the company official response to this situation.

 

[flying bubba]

You want to know the really bad part about the FFDO program? It's now outdated!
With the events of yesterday, I think its pretty safe to say that the mentality of the terrorists is that the cockpit is now unreachable. With camera's, armored doors, and countless individuals not willing to standby and watch someone rush the cockpit, they must find a way to bring down the aircraft and never reach the cockpit.
Hence, liguid explosives.
I think the FFDO program was kinda stupid anyways, but just my .02 cents.

Also, as far as Secret Service goes, you cannot deny them the jumpseat and they actually have the ability to have a flight crew changed if need be.

 

[HalinTexas]

I was told over two years ago that the weakest link to airline security is the onboard construction of a bomb by more than one terrorist. They would probably go to the lav and leave a part in the trash bin, then the next guy would bring in another part, and so on.

What makes this different is the type of explosive they were planning on using. Very potent, transportable, and undetectable.

 

[AQ PILOT]

Funny, if the FFDO program has now made the bad guys think that the cockpit is now unreachable, I'd say it worked pretty damn well and is far from outdated! Unless you think the terrorists weren't deterred by a couple of armed guys behind the cockpit door too.

You want to know the really bad part about the FFDO program? It's now outdated!
With the events of yesterday, I think its pretty safe to say that the mentality of the terrorists is that the cockpit is now unreachable. With camera's, armored doors, and countless individuals not willing to standby and watch someone rush the cockpit, they must find a way to bring down the aircraft and never reach the cockpit.
Hence, liguid explosives.
I think the FFDO program was kinda stupid anyways, but just my .02 cents.

Also, as far as Secret Service goes, you cannot deny them the jumpseat and they actually have the ability to have a flight crew changed if need be.

 

[Acefaser]

You can't be denied the jumseat for being an FFDO. If you were, report it to FFDO and they will charge the airline $10,000. This happend at my last airline and the company put out a memo explaining the FFDO rules.

 

[ils2minimums]

You want to know the really bad part about the FFDO program? It's now outdated!

I think the FFDO program was kinda stupid anyways, but just my .02 cents.

Thankfully, the 8000+ volunteer pilots who think differently haven't let the myriad obstacles stop them from trying to be part of the solution....

Each month another 100+ pilots are overcoming financial and logistical deterrents to become FFDO's.

Even though we may be fighting yesterdays battles, as soon as we stop, history will repeat itself.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Flying Bubba,

Perhaps you could look beyond the length of your anatomy to to see the outcome of your brilliant theory.

With the events of yesterday, I think its pretty safe to say that the mentality of the terrorists is that the cockpit is now unreachable.

Oh yeah, sure it is!!!! Perhaps you should talk to a FAM about the training scenarios that they have devised to breach the cockpit during a lav break.
You are truly a mental defective if you think the cockpit is in anyway now safe because now the tactics have changed.

With camera's, armored doors, and countless individuals not willing to standby and watch someone rush the cockpit, they must find a way to bring down the aircraft and never reach the cockpit. Hence, liguid explosives. (LIGUID)

Maybe you should try to find out a little more about the TSA chemical sniffers that are in use at some of the airports and what they can and can't do. It's a money issue and the government needs to pony up or you may be the guy who is screaming into the dead cvr on the way down with only half an airplane behind him.

The price of freedom is vigilance, vigilance on a multi tiered and expensive battleground of technology and common sense. Confiscating toothpaste is just more eyewash for the ignorant masses, of which in my view you are one. Everytime a hole in our security is opened we must close it and look for new ways to police our own weaknesses. Have you considered that the reason there hasn't been another breach of the cockpit could be because of the FFDO program that you disparage? We have to make it as difficult as possible for a terrorist to breach our security. Not give up when they stop trying something for a little while. Then just move on to the next thing hoping they won't try an older tactic.

I won't take the time to parse the rest of your post. You're obviously too soft-headed to understand what I've already written.

 

[ALGFLYR]

That is absolutely untrue. The Captain can not deny you a jumpseat for being an FFDO, period. If (s)he does, they better be smart enough not to say that is why they are doing it. They can come up with a myriad of reasons not to let you sit in the jump of course, but if they say it's because you're an FFDO, they are gonna get hammered.

As for the rest of it, your company probably knows better than to fight that battle with you for missing your scheduled check in when you were denied travel because you were an FFDO. If this happened to you, you should definitely report it.

Personally, i wouldn't deny the jumpseat because the pilot was an FFDO. But the Captain CAN deny the jumpseat to anyone. Maybe he shouldn't say it was because the person was an FFDO. That would be like saying you denied the jumpseat because of the persons race. The reason can be as simple as I didn't feel comfortable with this individual in the cockpit, no real reason given nor required. The secret service and the FAA ride positive space in the jumpseat and don't think they can be denied. If they could, nobody would get line checked by the FAA...

 

[flying bubba]

FARMER,

Perhaps you could look beyond the length of your anatomy to to see the outcome of your brilliant theory.

Wow, kinda personal isnt it?

You are truly a mental defective if you think the cockpit is in anyway now safe because now the tactics have changed.

You dont think cockpits are safer now than they were before?

Perhaps you should talk to a FAM about the training scenarios that they have devised to breach the cockpit during a lav break.

If you use this argument, why isnt everyone required to be an FFDO? Or more FAM's?

Maybe you should try to find out a little more about the TSA chemical sniffers that are in use at some of the airports and what they can and can't do. It's a money issue and the government needs to pony up or you may be the guy who is screaming into the dead cvr on the way down with only half an airplane behind him.

And this relates to the FFDO program how? And you said it yourself, SOME of the airports, just like SOME of the pilots are FFDO's.

The price of freedom is vigilance, vigilance on a multi tiered and expensive battleground of technology and common sense.

Lastly, please do not tell what the price of freemdom is until you have fought for it. I did for twenty years.

Sidenote: my biggest gripe with the FFDO program was in the fact that an individual can bypass security if he has a weapon on person. If that same individual does not have the weapon, why must he got through security with everyone else. Why?

 

[Taildragon]

Personally, i wouldn't deny the jumpseat because the pilot was an FFDO. But the Captain CAN deny the jumpseat to anyone. Maybe he shouldn't say it was because the person was an FFDO. That would be like saying you denied the jumpseat because of the persons race. The reason can be as simple as I didn't feel comfortable with this individual in the cockpit, no real reason given nor required. The secret service and the FAA ride positive space in the jumpseat and don't think they can be denied. If they could, nobody would get line checked by the FAA...

To counter this situation you ask for the jumpseat get your yes and then buy way I'm an FFDO. How would you counter that? (kind of sneaky, not what I would recommend) Luckily there are only a few ah*les that this entire situation would ever come up. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

 

[Kharma Police]

Personally, i wouldn't deny the jumpseat because the pilot was an FFDO. But the Captain CAN deny the jumpseat to anyone. Maybe he shouldn't say it was because the person was an FFDO. That would be like saying you denied the jumpseat because of the persons race. The reason can be as simple as I didn't feel comfortable with this individual in the cockpit, no real reason given nor required. The secret service and the FAA ride positive space in the jumpseat and don't think they can be denied. If they could, nobody would get line checked by the FAA...

The company can always remove the captain if he feels uncomfortable flying the trip.

 

[flying bubba]

AQ,

my point is that if they THINK the pilots might be armed then yes it worked. That is why they have started looking for new tactics. Going through the cockpit door is no longer a valid tactic for them. For the "new" tactics, such as this one, being an FFDO, I dont think would help a bit.

 

[ils2minimums]

Sidenote: my biggest gripe with the FFDO program was in the fact that an individual can bypass security if he has a weapon on person. If that same individual does not have the weapon, why must he got through security with everyone else. Why?

Is that really a gripe with the FFDO program? I think it's more of a gripe with TSA policy. For that matter, why do any airline pilots have to go through "security" at all? For cryin' out loud, we don't need nail clippers or liquid baby lotion to cause mass destruction. It's eyewash, plain and simple. But if you dare point out the absolute asininity of it to the high-grade retard manning the "security" checkpoint, you'll surely be hauled off to the klink.

 

[Applemac]

The biggest advantage to having a bunch of armed pilots wandering around an airport is that it increases *terminal* security. We've had one incident where a guy walked into LAX and shot up an El Al counter.

Imagine what the carnage would have been had 3 minivans full of Muslims shot up a security checkpoint with AK47s?

 

[ils2minimums]

Imagine what the carnage would have been had 3 minivans full of Muslims shot up a security checkpoint with AK47s?

:uzi: I sense a "thread hijack" approaching...

 

[FlyingFarmer]

I have met the enemy.....

I have fought for my country Major, or butter bar more likely, on the ground and in the air. You talk like just one more desk jockey who doesn't live in the real world, or are you a managment drone seeking entertainment?

you said,

If you use this argument, why isnt everyone required to be an FFDO? Or more FAM's?

again, you have proven that you're profile is untrue, or you really are to stupid to breathe. Required to be an FFDO, how did the draft work?

you also said,

And this relates to the FFDO program how? And you said it yourself, SOME of the airports, just like SOME of the pilots are FFDO's.

see above point,

Lastly, please do not tell (me)what the price of freemdom (freedom) is until you have fought for it. I did for twenty years.

how was the view from underneath your desk?

my biggest gripe with the FFDO program was in the fact that an individual can bypass security if he has a weapon on person. If that same individual does not have the weapon, why must he got through security with everyone else.

another point that shows your level of comprehension and valour. You are either not who you say you are, or too stupid to serve.

I have decided to no longer engage you in debate due to your status as mentally infirm.:angryfire

 

[FN FAL]

Imagine what the carnage would have been had 3 minivans full of Muslims shot up a security checkpoint with AK47s?

Armed pilots isn't going to change the outcome of that scenario.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

The biggest advantage to having a bunch of armed pilots wandering around an airport is that it increases *terminal* security. We've had one incident where a guy walked into LAX and shot up an El Al counter.

Imagine what the carnage would have been had 3 minivans full of Muslims shot up a security checkpoint with AK47s?

Imagine the damage caused by 3 prius(es?) full of Tom Cruise and a bunch of Scientologists...

 

[737tanker]

FARMER,

Sidenote: my biggest gripe with the FFDO program was in the fact that an individual can bypass security if he has a weapon on person. If that same individual does not have the weapon, why must he got through security with everyone else. Why?

It is not just FFDOs it is anyone who is authorized to carry a weapon. That includes Feds such as FBI, DEA, Secret Service, and Marshalls. It also includes locals from the State Police down to some town's version of Barney Fife. My problem is not with the Feds and FFDOs who bypass (they all have had very strict background checks) it is the guy who claims he is a local cop from some ou of the way small town.

 

[VAjetlag]

We had an instance of which a Captain denied an FAA inspector the jumpseat because the guy was not doing an inspection just catching a free ride to a meeting because hi boss was riding in the back and told him to so they did not have to buy two tickets. It caused a huge stink but the Captain won. United had the same situation with an inspector in BOI that was on a project in DEN and used the jump seat several times a week for free transportation. ALPA went to UA and the FAA and put a stop to it. It is not there for their convience.

 

[Slippery Mick]

Personally, i wouldn't deny the jumpseat because the pilot was an FFDO. But the Captain CAN deny the jumpseat to anyone. Maybe he shouldn't say it was because the person was an FFDO. That would be like saying you denied the jumpseat because of the persons race. The reason can be as simple as I didn't feel comfortable with this individual in the cockpit, no real reason given nor required. The secret service and the FAA ride positive space in the jumpseat and don't think they can be denied. If they could, nobody would get line checked by the FAA...

You're right. But if the captain admits you to the jumpseat, then learns an FFDO is armed, then refuses passage, he has violated law. If he denies the jumpseat without knowledge the person is armed, then he is exercising is authority as PIC.

 

[Slippery Mick]

Sidenote: my biggest gripe with the FFDO program was in the fact that an individual can bypass security if he has a weapon on person. If that same individual does not have the weapon, why must he got through security with everyone else. Why?

My friend, you are trying to apply logic to TSA rules.

 

[1stCivDiv]

Any Captain that denies the jumpseat to an armed FFDO is a chicken sh!t pansy, that needs to go back to California and hug some trees. Plain and simple... Look at the world we live in now fellas geez....

 

[ivauir]

You want to know the really bad part about the FFDO program? It's now outdated!
With the events of yesterday, I think its pretty safe to say that the mentality of the terrorists is that the cockpit is now unreachable. With camera's, armored doors, and countless individuals not willing to standby and watch someone rush the cockpit, they must find a way to bring down the aircraft and never reach the cockpit.

You just made the ultimate pro FFDO argument.
Hence, liguid explosives.
I think the FFDO program was kinda stupid anyways, but just my .02 cents.

I'm not sure what the exchange rate is on that ,02 cents, but I fell ripped off.