Has Boeing given up?????????

[enigma]

I posted this on the interview bbs first and it hasn't gotten any comment.

The US's only commercial jetliner manufacturer gives up on obtaining new orders, and no-one seems to care.

Here's an opportunity for all of you "aviation subjects only" posters to comment.

Here it is:

I found this at ATWonline.

"Spirit's aircraft order was Boeing's to lose…and it did
Dateline: Wednesday March 31, 2004

Boeing had the inside track to win Spirit Airlines' order for new aircraft to replace its MD-80 fleet but lost out to a more aggressive and sincere Airbus campaign, Spirit President and CEO Jacob Schorr said yesterday.

Speaking at the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading 21st annual meeting in Hollywood, Fla., a few weeks after committing for up to 85 A320 family aircraft (ATWOnline, March 22), Schorr said Spirit was predisposed to order 737NGs for growth and to replace its 32 MD-80s owing to its experience operating the former McDonnell Douglas, now Boeing aircraft.

However, Airbus pursued the negotiation "with greater seriousness and diligence," he told attendees, adding that at one point he "thought the Airbus salesman worked for Spirit" owing to his commitment to understanding the carrier's requirements.

Over time, Spirit became convinced that the A320 family offered significant competitive advantages over the 737NG and Boeing ultimately chose not even to submit a final competitive offer. Spirit signed firm MOUs for 35 aircraft comprising 29 A319s and six A321s, with options for 50 more. All are to be powered by IAE V2500s.

Twenty of the aircraft--18 A319s and two A321s--will be leased from ILFC, Chairman and CEO Steven Udvar-Hazy confirmed to ATWOnline. Of the leased aircraft, six A319s and two A320s will arrive in 2005, followed by six A319s in 2006 and 2007, Udvar-Hazy said.

Spirit recently completed a recapitalization in which Oaktree Capital Management acquired a 51% stake in the airline for $125 million. Schorr continues to own around 37%, he told this website.--Perry Flint"

I thought that our people favored Airbus, now Schorr says that he really favored Boeing. I guess this means that I should be cussing Boeing instead of the management dudes at Spirit. Dang em!

enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Boeing's cursed...they should never have made those "Boeing DC-3" stickers.

 

[enigma]

Boeing's cursed...they should never have made those "Boeing DC-3" stickers.

Man, I must have missed those. Are you F-ing serious? Did Boeing really make DC3 stickers and call them a Boeing DC3? If so, they've got to be the biggest bunch of maroons I've heard about since the last piece I read that talked about USAirways management.

Wow,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Man, I must have missed those. Are you F-ing serious? Did Boeing really make DC3 stickers and call them a Boeing DC3?

I'd love to tell you I was making that up...but I saw them myself...for sale in the company store at Boeing Field a few years ago.

I also spoke with a fella who went through a DC-3 ground school a while back. He said all the manuals said "Boeing DC-3."

 

[Skyboss]

Boeing probably doesn't want to see aircraft devaluation if Spirirt loses it's Spirit. Airbus on the other hand would sell their soouls to unload aircraft.

 

[A Squared]

Man, I must have missed those. Are you F-ing serious? Did Boeing really make DC3 stickers and call them a Boeing DC3? If so, they've got to be the biggest bunch of maroons I've heard about since the last piece I read that talked about USAirways management.

Wow,
enigma

Yeah, I never saw the stickers, but not long ago thier website referrd to all the douglas products as Boeings, from the DC-3 on up. It was as if Douglas and McDonnell Douglas never existed. They must have taken some heat for it, and now the website recognizes that McDoug did at one time exist. It was a little creepy though, sort of like a soviet historian.

 

[100LL... Again!]

In a way, Boeing deserves to go out o business for renaming the DC-3.

This is a case of corporate arroganec/insecurity run amok.

Attention Boeing: you guys are major losers.

 

[TonyC]

Boeing's cursed...they should never have made those "Boeing DC-3" stickers.

And I thought it was sacreligious for them to use the 717 designation for a McD product....

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'm so glad I happened into the airline support office in Long Beach when they were getting ready to move. I used to go there every six months when back in the States for recurrent and ask them for a few MD-80 or DC-9 flight crew stickers. Those would be McDonnell Douglas stickers, which have always been much more stylistic than the Boeing fat airplane ones. Anyway, that day the lady said, " just go back to the cabinet and take what you want ". Talk about a license to steal, I now have a nice collection of McDonnell Douglas flight crew stickers

When I went to work for the " Long Beach Division " those stickers were all gone, replaced by the Boeing ones. A big reason that I left Boeing was the arrogance of the Seattle pilot group. They didn't want to have anything to do with us lowly Long Beach pilots and didn't offer any hope that we could move up there when production ended on the MD-80, MD-90, and MD-11 lines. That arrogance seems to predominate the company culture and is a big reason for the recent lack of success in aircraft sales.

They make a good product and have every right to be proud of it. The Boeing 777 is the best airplane in the sky today from both a pilot's perspective and an economic one. It's too bad they behave the way they do. Airbus offers a decent airplane at a very competitive price ( subsidized of course ) while Boeing offers a superior product at a high cost. I'm not sure what the answer is to fix Boeing but they do need to change if they are going to remain competitive in commercial aircraft sales.

Typhoonpilot

 

[XGmaninGA]

My guess is that someone high up in Boeing has made a conscious decision to get out of the civilian airplane business and focus on the more lucrative Defense business.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Sounds familiar...

My company also wanted to continue its relationship with Boeing and its fine 737 line when it went shopping to upgrade and expand the fleet. Boeing, however, had other plans and refused to negotiate prices as it had with other carriers. It had been a natural choice for us to stay with the 73', but we were forced to take a second look. Sure enough, Airbus put it's best foot forward, and we ended up with an airplane that goes faster, farther, carries more people and operates more economically than the 737 in our market. So although yes, Airbus is subsidized, they put out a superior product and actually THANK you for buying them. I went to Airbus school in MIA and can personally attest to the fact that the Airbus folks down there could not do enough for us. From the top down, we were treated with the utmost respect, courtesy and kindness. Our access to their resources was nearly limitless. Friends of mine in previous classes who went to Boeing Seattle for their training had different experiences.

As a patriot and former 737 guy myself, it saddens me deeply to see this happening, but I can only equate it to the US auto industry in the late 70's and 80's. They seriously have their heads up and locked right now, and need to make serious adjustments. The 777 is a great example of what they can do. They just need to do it.

 

[FlyChicaga]

My guess is that someone high up in Boeing has made a conscious decision to get out of the civilian airplane business and focus on the more lucrative Defense business.

Ding ding ding! I think we have a winner.

We must all remember how much Boeing is invested in other areas of aerospace production, other than just airliners. I also think that these massive Airbus sales are sort of a bandwagon that companies are jumping on... JetBlue got 320s, Frontier got 320s, Independence Air got 320s... by gosh we should get 320s too!

 

[Typhoon1244]

My guess is that someone high up in Boeing has made a conscious decision to get out of the civilian airplane business and focus on the more lucrative Defense business.

Yup. They're going to focus on--among other things--those Boeing FA-18 Hornets. And those Boeing C-17 Globemasters. And Boeing F-15 Eagles.

Ugh...I hate that. Can you imagine the same kind of merger happening in the auto industry? "Introducing the 2005 Saturn Mustang!"

 

[flint4xx]

Daimler-Chrysler
Jaguar-Ford

I know there is more, just can't think of them.

 

[FN FAL]

I think it's tied into 9/11 a little bit also. They are probably not interested in building big vessels of liability anymore. How many titanics do you have to have happen in one year to force your hand in a business decision.

Condoleza Rice wasn't to blame for 9/11. George Bush wasn't to blame for 9/11. But the FAA and the airline industry chose to leave an attractive nusiance open to the terrorists in the form of a stupid regulation concerning the emergency exit not being blocked and cockpit doors a child could defeat.

We are coming up on the ten year anniversary of the brutal attack and attempted hijacking on FedEx's DC-10 on this April 7th and the downing of PSA's Flight 1771 on of all days DECEMBER 7th 1987!

The industry knew that it was possible to access the cockpit of airliners as did the manufacturers and so did the FBI and the FAA...and evidently so did the hijackers on 9/11.

 

[ProLine4]

Sorry I can't find the link, but I read Spirit only had 1 creditor based in Los Angeles provide them with $125m initial capital for their fleet renewal. Apparently Boeing steered clear of the final RFP, because of the fact that $125m from one sole creditor is far from the capital required for what would end up being over $2b worth of 737NGs. I guess Boeing wanted to prevent the slightest chance of producing whitetail aircraft if NK or its one creditor would not be able to fund the purchase (even if via a lessee such as ILFC or GECAS).

 

[Midnight Mike]

More to this story than what Spirit is telling, wonder if Boeing is going to tell their side of the story or if they are going to remain quiet.

 

[350DRIVER]

End of Boeing, end of Boeing since they did not get the Spirit contract..... Oh nooooo..... Are you serious? I don't think Boeing is going anywhere anytime soon.

Has Boeing given up?????????

One lost opportunity (order) I highly doubt will lead to the fall of this company.


just my $.02

3 5 0

 

[enigma]

One lost opportunity (order) I highly doubt will lead to the fall of this company.

just my $.02

3 5 0

I happen to work for Spirit, but in the case being discussed, I'm speaking only as a pro-American Boeing cheerleader. No, I doubt that losing 90 airplanes from NK will lead to the fall of Boeing, but it worries the heck out of me that Boeing would have given up so easily.

Proline4 has offered a reasonable explanation, I hope that he is correct. I would really hate to see the US totally out of the airliner business.

enigma

 

[TonyC]

Anyway, that day the lady said, " just go back to the cabinet and take what you want ". Talk about a license to steal, I now have a nice collection of McDonnell Douglas flight crew stickers
Typhoonpilot

Would you be willing to part with a few MD-11 stickers?