Hang the hat or continue?

[El Guapo]

At what point in life does an aspiring pilot decide to hang his hat and give it up?

I am a 30 years old college graduate, married with no kids and I have 1200TT.

I want the American pilot's dream; you know nice house, nice car, GA airplane, and the 2.5 kids. But if I follow my dream, I may never get close to that dream. On the other hand, if I put my business degree and work the dreeded 9-5 corporate job I might get to my dream much quicker, but be very unhappy with my job.

I am fortunate enough to have a wife that supports me with either choice I make, but I don't know if she could handle the almost poverty like life style of a begining pilot, and/or the instability of the industry, plus moving where ever the job takes us.

This position in life can be compared to V1 (decision speed), and my decision age is 30 yoa, should I put the brakes on and throw out the spoilers, or should I clean up and continue to try to slowly climb to a safe income?

I'd like to hear from people who have been at this point of their lives.

Thanks!

El Guapo

 

[Flying Illini]

I'm not 30 years old yet but here's my 2 cents. It may be a rough road with low income but it would be a job that you LOVE to do. Don't trap yourself in a job you hate b/c that will wear on you (and your wife) and you will always look longinly <sp?> at the sky everytime you hear an airplane fly over. Follow your heart and do what you love to do. You may not be able to live extravagantly for a while but at least you will be one of the happiest men alive. Good luck with your decision.

Illini

ps, do you really want to be part of that group that stands around the water cooler complaining about how much they hate their jobs?

 

[corky]

Well, you're not going to like this response and I hate to rain on the parade but from my perspective, your number one concern should be what is best for your children. It's a different ball game once you have kids. This business is tough and I've seen many families torn apart by one's aspiration to be an airline pilot. Just one example, while at eagle my sim partner's wife took the kids and left him. He left a stable office job that put food on the table for a 19K a year regional pilot job to be furloughed and unemployed 3 months later. He too said she was the most supportive wife in the world. But, he had a responsibility of providing for his family and he decided to put his personal priorities ahead of that. At 1200TT you have a long way to go in todays environment. You may have a shot at a regional job in a couple years but you won't be earning enough to support your family for another 3-5 years after that. Think long and hard about it before you take the plunge. You better have a nice nest egg to live off of for a while. This is a young, single man's industry. You've really got be unattached, able to live off no income and able to move anywhere to succeed. I wouldn't hang up your wings but consider flying part time and keep your day job.

 

[Whirlwind]

Well, you're not going to like this response and I hate to rain on the parade but from my perspective, your number one concern should be what is best for your children.

Just a minor point...

But lots of money does not great children make...

If their father is miserable, then how is that good for the kids? Being poor does not mean the kids will suffer, it means they won't have new computers every year, designer clothes, and all that.

So what!

That's not what life's about...

 

[fLYbUDDY]

I am alot younger (20yrs) and was thinking about the same thing. I, as well as millions, have dreamed about becoming an airline pilot with that perfect lifestyle (nice car, house, 2.5 kids, ect..). Unfortunateally it probablly isn't going to ever happen. I belive anything is possible but the reality of it is it seems like a very hard ladder to climb. It's almost like wanting to be a pro baseball or basketball player.

Due to the politics and unstability (to say the least) of flying for a living i decided to abort t/o. Like i said i'm 20 yrs old in collage with two years of aviation management finished and two to go. It was just last week i made the decision to change paths (althoh i've been thinking about it for some time).

This is just my .02 (and may not be true for everyone), but look at it this way....flying is definately one of the funnist things i have ever done and to be paid to fly for a living? Well can anything be better? I belive yes. I doubt you will love flying as much when you are away from the wife and kids for along time, constantly worrying about job security, and stuck flying low senority positions. And the pay is obviously garbage. Not that we should be motivated to fly by a particular salary but we should at least expect to make a living.

I think it would be much more fun to fly when i want to fly and fly with who i want to fly with. This can be possible with a good non-flying job. There seems to be a lot of oppertunity in the aviation community in non-flying jobs (such as airport management). You can use your business degree/experiance to find a good job. You will have a bettter chance at making a decent income to support a family and eventually mabey be able to buy your own plane to fly whenever you say you want to fly. You should at least be able to rent often if you decide to not buy an airplane. There will always be a ladder to climb and some hard times/work to be expected in any job (flying or non-flying). But the pro pilot thing seems near impossibly.

i hope no one takes this the wrong way but it seems to be successful in professional flying you have to love flying above and beyond anything else. # 1 on the priority. Higher on the list than your own lifestyle, kids, wife, anything. If not it will be a very hard life to deal with.

I think your still young enough to make a carrer change toward somethin other than flying and be very sucessful.

Last thought.... Think about this:

1)You stay persueing a flying carrer:

 

[corky]

Just a minor point...

But lots of money does not great children make...

If their father is miserable, then how is that good for the kids? Being poor does not mean the kids will suffer, it means they won't have new computers every year, designer clothes, and all that.

So what!

That's not what life's about...

.....there's a difference between lots of money and ENOUGH money to survive. Neither of which you will see as a flight instructor or regional airline pilot. Computers, designer cloths??? he'd be seriously concerned about making the mortgage, car payment and grocery bill. Basic survival as a junior pilot is tough as a single guy and nearly impossible as a father of 2.5 unless his wife works and doesn't mind being the primary bread winner for the next 10 years. As I said, if you have kids it's a different story. It's not about your personal happiness anymore.

 

[Deftone45075]

I know you asked for replies from people in the same situation, however no one has been to forthcoming so here is my opinion as well.

You said you have no kids, so If your going to pursue aviation. Do it before you have them. It will be lot easier to support just you and your wife for the next few years until you can establish a decent income. Make sure your wife is okay with holding off on children for awhile.

There are many different routes to take in aviation. You don't have to go to a regional and make a low wage, you can make a low wage just fine doing charter, Lol. But there is also a good chance that you can find another job either 135 or corporate while your working that first year or two. Network with the people you meet and you could very well find a gig that will pay you much more than regional salary. The options and opportunities are out there. Just always keep your priorities in order.

The family comes first, but you don't have any additional mouths to feed yet, or college funds to provide for. So If your going to put in a few hard years in aviation, sooner is better than later.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Sorry I accidentally posted before I checked for grammar and such…..HERE IS WHAT I MEANT TO POST:

I am a lot younger (20yrs) and was thinking about the same thing. I, as well as millions, have dreamed about becoming an airline pilot with that perfect lifestyle (nice car, house, 2.5 kids, ect..). Unfortunately it probably isn't going to ever happen. I believe anything is possible but the reality of it is it seems like a very hard ladder to climb. It's almost like wanting to be a pro baseball or basketball player.

Due to the politics and unstability (to say the least) of flying for a living I decided to abort t/o. Like I said I’m 20 yrs old in collage with two years of aviation management finished and two to go. It was just last week I made the decision to change paths (although I’ve been thinking about it for some time).

This is just my .02 (and may not be true for everyone), but look at it this way....flying is definitely one of the funniest things I have ever done and to be paid to fly for a living? Well can anything be better? I believe yes. I doubt you will love flying as much when you are away from the wife and kids for along time, constantly worrying about job security, and stuck flying low seniority positions. And the pay is obviously garbage. Not that we should be motivated to fly by a particular salary but we should at least expect to make a living.

I think it would be much more fun to fly when I want to fly and fly with who I want to fly with. This can be possible with a good non-flying job. There seems to be a lot of opportunity in the aviation community in non-flying jobs (such as airport management). You can use your business degree/experience to find a good job. You will have a better chance at making a decent income to support a family and eventually maybe be able to buy your own plane to fly whenever you say you want to fly. You should at least be able to rent often if you decide to not buy an airplane. There will always be a ladder to climb and some hard times/work to be expected in any job (flying or non-flying). But the pro pilot thing seems near impossible.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way but it seems to be successful in professional flying you have to love flying above and beyond anything else. # 1 on the priority. Higher on the list than your own lifestyle, kids, wife, anything. If not it will be a very hard life to deal with.

I think you’re still young enough to make a career change toward something other than flying and be very successful.

I know that I am young and being my first post on this site I am voicing a very strong opinion. This was not intended to hurt or insult anyone it's just the way things seem to be (at least from my perspective). Thanks for all the great posts everyone gives. Even though this is my first reply I have been reading many helpful things on this board for a while.

So long yall and God bless!

 

[Whirlwind]

.....there's a difference between lots of money and ENOUGH money to survive. Neither of which you will see as a flight instructor or regional airline pilot.

One must first define what enough money is before you make that call.

he'd be seriously concerned about making the mortgage, car payment and grocery bill.

Why does he own a house? At that level of income, you really can't afford one.

What car payment? Buy a used car, something serviceable, if not fancy. You can own a very useful, nice enough car for $3,000.

As I said, if you have kids it's a different story. It's not about your personal happiness anymore.

No, it isn't all about your own personal happiness, but it still remains an imporant factor. Kids will be able to tell if their parents are unhappy, even more so if their parents hate what they do.

 

[LearLove]

nothing worth doing is ever going to be easy or handed to you

 

[CHQ F/A]

hey guapo...lots of guys are in your situation...i am one of those guys as well. It's hard enough finding an entry level job these days so we have to be creative. I've come to the realization that to get where I want to go, I may have to do things I never really wanted to do, like become a ramper or flight attendant, or take non-aviation jobs and actually use my business degrees. Though it may take a bit longer to get where we want to go, we'll get there eventually. You still have 30 years to make captain at some airline, possibly more if they raise retirement age. Just do what you have to do to make a good life for yourself and your wife and try to enjoy the ride and all the bumps along the way. But don't quit.

-j

 

[Ty Webb]

I sat out the last Great Aviation Depression, since I was unwilling to PFT and at 600tt/50 multi there weren't many other options. You are in a better position now then i was then- you at least have 135 PIC minimums, and some regionalsare hiring now, which they weren't in the early Nineties.

Things will turn around in the next few years, so you need to position yourself accordingly, whatever that means to you, whether it is putting some money away now working at something else and keeping current on the side, or finding a flying job now to build quality time . . . .

I went the corporate route initially, because it paid better. When I could make the transition to a good National, I did. There are many ways to get there, find the one that works for you.

 

[Tailwind]

I'm getting tired of posters saying you will only make $19K/year for ten years, etc. etc. at a Regional. It's simply not true.

1. My brother is a F/O for ASA
2. A former Instructor of mine was with ASA, (now he's at AirTran).

I have talked to both about the pay and have acutally seen my brothers paychecks, and both have said yes, first year is about $19K...BUT....second year it does improve. No, it doesn't jump to $60K smarta$$, but combined with the wife's income($35K) it's enough to afford the mortage and two cars (used).

What really made the difference was when he got off a reserve line and got a regular line flying about 90-100 hrs a month.
That, combined with all the per diem he gets means he's making just under $40k....$39K and change. All of this after only 2 years!

That is NOT an unliveable wage. His wife also works (grocery store asst. mgr.) and makes about $35K.

TOTAL: $75K/year... Which could have been more if he upgraded to Capt., but he didn't want to move the family to DFW. Besides, they are doing fine where they are.

They and their one year old child are by no means starving or living in poverty like some of you are predicting. Was the two years tough? You're Dam$ right is was! No dinners out, no cable, no Air conditioning("Hey, turn that light out!"), or vacations(that really pi$$ed him off). He had all these family passes to fly free and couldn't use them!
But who ever said life was easy? If you want something bad enough then do what it takes and be smart about it.

NO CAR PAYMENTS....Who cares what your friends drive, get a beater.
NO CREDIT CARD DEBT...Just pay it off every month. If you can't do that, then you can't afford to buy whatever you're trying to buy.
NO KIDS unless you can afford ONE.

Go for your dream...
Does the economy suck? Yeah, it does now, so what, go for your dream. It will rebound.
Will you get furloughed? Maybe...ASA hasn't yet, and neither has some other airlines.

Go for it!

Before any of you chime in with "Well, that's your brothers situation, he got lucky, not all regionals are like that....etc.etc." Don't. Save it.
Life is not "all equal" and there are NO guarantees! Just because you want it doesn't mean you'll get it.
I'm just saying it can be done, I've seen it, and please....
STOP SAYING ALL YOU WILL EVER MAKE AT A REGIONAL IS $19K!!!
It's just not true.

 

[corky]

whoops ....I thought I read he already had kids.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Tough choice

While I'm not in El Guapo's situation, I can tell you if you don't like your occupation it will be a long tough road in job satisfaction. I say this from personal experience.
I work M-F around 45 hours a week, pretty much banker's hours. Get decent benefits, OK vacation, and nine paid holidays. Should make $90-$95K this year. HOWEVER, I dread going into work every day. It offers miminal satisfaction (perhaps to another person they would find it stimulating but not me). I am now a big believer to try to find an occupation that you find interesting (and is legal!) AND can offer the type of compensation and benefits you can be satisfied with.
I would change careers in a heartbeat but I'm too far along the career path and have gotten acustomed (especially the family) to a certain life style. I have to keep reminding myself my quality of life outside work is pretty good and I can enjoy some of the neater things in life (like flying) as a result of my work. Just wish I found the job interesting.
El Guapo do you find your current job rewarding and how is the pay? If it isn't that great then maybe you should go for it (the flying thing).

 

[El Guapo]

great info!

Hey guys I appreciate all of you inputs. I've even got some PM's telling me to hang it up before I get deeper into the industry and some PM's telling me to go forward and to not look back.

Right now I'm not working because I was layed off, but I plan on persuing my dream job. I plan on getting a real job until I get picked up by someone's flight department.

For those of you who are persuading me to pursue my dream, you made some good points and actually got me thinking positively.

For those of you who are dissuading me from getting further into aviation, I appreciate your point of view and I respect your input as well. But I believe that if I'm going to be unhappy with my job, I'd rather be unhappy flying planes than being unhappy pushing papers in an office. At least I can say that I set out to do something and attained it. Some people spend all of their lives saying, " I wish I would of done it when I was younger." I don't want to be one of those.

Now, does anyone know who will hire a pilot with just over 1,200TT??

Thanks again!

El Guapo

 

[Dragonbravo]

I got a lat start on this flying thing too. Allthough not 1200hrs at age 30. But since the "professional" jobs are hard to come by, go do the fun stuff that everybody wishes they did after they are locked into a carrer job. Go to Alaska, fly anything. Get on with a DC-3 somewhere, do you know how cool that will be in 20 years? Do something that would be cool to do, but not make a carrer out of, then when the carrer comes around, you can smile wider than the rest.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: great info!

At least I can say that I set out to do something and attained it. Some people spend all of their lives saying, " I wish I would of done it when I was younger." I don't want to be one of those.

Amen!

Now, does anyone know who will hire a pilot with just over 1,200TT??

How much multi time do you have?

 

[El Guapo]

background

Whirlwind,

My flight time looks like this:

1200 + TT, 800 + multi-turbine, and 350 + single engine.
I flew right seat for a 135 operator for a while until they layed us off. I know most people are going to think I PFTed, but the truth is that I didn't. I did however, sign a one year contract.

If anyone has any leads that would be great.

El Guapo

 

[FSB99]

i'm not really going to give you any advice, cause, you got a lot of it from everyone else above. but, maybe hearing someone else's experience would help put things in perspective.
i am married, no kids, working at a 'regional' airline. i went to college to become a pilot, typical story, etc etc. had stars in my eyes, the whole nine yards. worked line service midnights, finishing up college, blah blah. then i met a girl who became my wife. she is totally supportive of this crazy game, and has not had a real complaint about all the moves, all the scrounging for money, and the fact that we can't join our friends at the movie theater on friday nights.
i have not been furloughed, am lucky enough to be hanging on to the bottom of our seniority list. when it all got to me, hot and heavy, last year, and i was about to walk out, give up this flying stuff for good, and take a mid-term job back in line service, until i figured out what i wanted to do with the rest of my life.. the reasons i wanted to leave were typical.. real pay, supply a real life to my wife, provide a house, car, clothes, etc.
but, she made me realize that she would be just as happy with that lifestyle, as long as i didn't change.. that made me realize that leaving this job for a 9-5 routine job would probably change me (for good or bad).
so, until i get furloughed, or until we BOTH get fed up with it, then i'll be sticking it out flying.

 

[bobbysamd]

Quals

My flight time looks like this:

1200 + TT, 800 + multi-turbine, and 350 + single engine.
I flew right seat for a 135 operator for a while until they layed us off . . . .

You are a little light on total time, but you have excellent multi-turbine. Did you get a 135 letter out of that deal? That would be a good credential.

Your turbine time is a major plus, especially considering your overall experience. That kind of time does not grow on trees. You are still plenty young. Keep at it. Get your ATP when you hit 1500, even if you must pay for it yourself. Hiring will get better because it always does. Take it from someone who went through one cycle and observed a second cycle. You will be well-positioned when the time comes.

Come talk to me in ten years if you find yourself in the same position, and we'll discuss paralegal school. You already have one qual for that, your degree. But I doubt rather seriously that will happen.

 

[EngineOut]

I am alot younger (20yrs) and was thinking about the same thing. I, as well as millions, have dreamed about becoming an airline pilot with that perfect lifestyle (nice car, house, 2.5 kids, ect..). Unfortunateally it probablly isn't going to ever happen. I belive anything is possible but the reality of it is it seems like a very hard ladder to climb. It's almost like wanting to be a pro baseball or basketball player.

** SNIP **

The key here is that most folks jumping ship right now are those who boarded at the peak of the cycle. I'm 28 and don't know about you all, but I boarded the ship when I was seven. The more people (who saw United's contract triumph and decided to switch careers in 2000) that quit...the better. This may be kinda' harsh, but the industry didn't need you anyway.

I have been with the same woman for 9 years, I bartended, threw bags for AA, washed cars, washed cats, etc. for the last 4 years to get her through nursing school. Now, she told me she will work for a measly $23 an hour [TO START FOR CRYING OUT LOUD] to support us while I finish my business degrees and flight instruct. This is coming from a lady that taught me how to live WELL BELOW my means! I'm a lucky man...

 

[GEUAviator]

Flamebait from El Guapo?

I only ask this for this reason:

1200TT, 800 MULTI TURBINE!

My god! I'd love to have that kind of time!

Why don't you apply to some regionals?

Am I totally out of the loop thinking that El Guapo's flight times are great?

Someone set me straight here! Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

GEUAviator

 

[Draginass]

It's, of course, a personal decision. If I were a younger person right now, I would not even consider a career in commercial airline aviation. In the last year, this industry has gone through a complete reversal of the power of unions. Unions are irrelevant, partly by their own actions, and partly by the wild swings in the economy, and partly by government disinterest in a coherent national transportation system.

While two years ago, I enjoyed commercial flying, I now get in a bad mood everytime I go to work. I haven't flown with anyone recently that actually wants to come to work.

If you don't mind low pay and constant downward pressure on your compensation, being treated like ditch digger, and being part of a boom/bust industry, then go right ahead.

I hope this will change, but I doubt it. The several of the major airline unions have already provided management with huge and permanent givebacks. Look at the "real" compensation for pilots over the last 20 years. The next attack will be on retirement. Expect the now neutered unions to make further concessions to management on pensions . . . . like creating a C-scale pension for newly hired pilots. Do NOT expect any protection from your union.

My advice would be to do something else that you enjoy and fly recreationally for fun.

Pick your own poison.

 

[sf3boy]

Tailwind is sort of correct on the whole pay thing. My first year at Mesaba, 18K. I have been at Mesaba for four years now and have made it up to 28K/yr. Some FO's will make more if they pick up open time, but while we still are furloughing, I will not. We currently have fo's with over two years in sitting straight reserve. At some airlines you will be able to upgrade after a few years and double your pay and others you will not. The only thing I have to go on is Mesaba and to be a captain here, it is 5 years plus with the number going higher by the minute.

 

[acarpe3448]

Even though I am on furlough at the moment and do not plan on being recalled anytime soon, I am in this for the long run. I am taking my bite of the sh$$ sandwich right now and living on minimum wage and unemployment benefits. I do believe that there will be a significant drop in the salaries and benefits of pilots for the near future, however, I am not one of those who believes that things will never be the same again. Even with the concesions that management is forcing on us, a pilot career with a major airline is very lucrative, if you do not believe that just start looking for another career that pays anywhere near what it does, if you find one let me know I would love to apply there for the mean time.

 

[KATL8R26L]

hay man

Well, his time doesn't sound bad, whish i had those numbers.

Here is what i intend to do during this down turn , first secure a high paying sales job thats rite go back into selling, reduce the dubt once again, continue to fly may be buy my own plane to build multi time in.

Just keep on learning all along the way, take a king air course, and be able to pay cash for time in the plane, and just work towards getting my ATP.

I am older than ony one so far that has posted here ,and i can say you kids give up to easly.

Keep your eye on the ball and never quit, either you can play hurt and suck it up or get out.

 

[Skygod]

Hello 'El'

I wonder if you will ever have enough money? I wonder how much you love -- need -- flying? Of course, only you can answer these questions.

It's good that you are asking the questions, and listening to the debate. For there are some that are better in the Dilbert world, and some that are only happy above the clouds. It's a question inward, with no right answer.

For me, it's flying. I supported my ATR F/O airline habit with a side job (yes, aviation related). I am happy I stuck with it, I know folks that thought long and hard about quitting (sorry, too biased word, let's say moving to other fields) but stayed in aviation and a REALLY REALLY HAPPY. Any path you take from here will test you, and your relationships. Maybe you should take the time to really look into other jobs -- it will scare you right back to flying or be the start of something new.

Good luck.

And I hope I see you in the sky . . . grooving with gravity, laughing at the clouds.

 

[bobbysamd]

Quality flight time

I only ask this for this reason:

1200TT, 800 MULTI TURBINE!

My god! I'd love to have that kind of time!

Why don't you apply to some regionals?

Am I totally out of the loop thinking that El Guapo's flight times are great?

Absolutely not. I would have died just to have 100 hours of multi turbine. He's a little light on total hours, but when compared to the MULTI TURBINE he has, he has nothing to complain about. He may not be competitive on paper at some of the regionals right now because of the 1200 TT, but the 800 of MULTI TURBINE should go far to overcome that shortcoming. Accordingly, El Guapo should be spamming the regionals.

He'd be extremely competitive with those hours and an ATP.