HA pilots approve TA

[pipejockey]

pipejockey,

It's easy to sit on the outside and pontificate without having any of the inside information.

I said many of the same things you posted and more during the voting to other HA pilots. But the reality is that our new contract puts us at the top of the pay scale for narrow body aircraft and 767s, and only below Delta for A330s. Plus our work rules, benefits and retirement are also some of the best in the industry. It is hard to get more when you're at or near the top in some areas and being offered increases to at or near the top in the others. If we had voted this down, the NMB probably would not have released us for a strike for years. In fact, they would probably have parked the negotiations for a long time before they got involved again and it probably would have been another 2 years before we got a contract. Despite this, there were 17% of us that voted. But I full understand why the other 83% voted yes. While I personally think we could have done better, I am very happy with what we got. We have outstanding pay, work rules, benefits and retirement. It is not a contract to be whine about or be ashamed of. It is damn good.

But you're comparing these rates to what can only be considered, artificially low rates. We need to start comparing rates to what was out their in the late 90's to 2001. I just can't justify negotiating pay rates from what was created through bankruptcies. Especially at an airline experiencing record profits. We will just have to agree to disagree. And if you were 1 of the 17% who voted no, well you will never be buying the drinks when I'm around, even though I'm flat broke!

*edit* We keep posting at the same time and I missed you're edit. So I will also add that one of the very reasons HAL should be at the top of the pay scales industry wide is the high cost of living in Hawaii. Just a thought.

 

[PCL_128]

Saying that "inflation" has gone up at a rate of 3% per year is far too simplistic. Yes, for a guy making $40k per year, his cost of living has gone up roughly 3% per year on average. But the same cannot be said for a guy making $140k per year, because the basket of goods used to calculate the CPI doesn't apply in the same way to him. For example, as a percentage of income the guy making $140k per year likely spends far less on groceries each year than the guy making $40k. So, if groceries go up in price by 5% this year, and that is calculated into the CPI basket of goods, it affects the guy making $40k a lot more than the guy making $140k.

In general, cost of living increases at a much lower rate for those making "high" incomes. If you're making six figures, your cost of living is not increasing at the same rate as the CPI.

 

[Jim]

...And if you were 1 of the 17% who voted no, well you will never be buying the drinks when I'm around, even though I'm flat broke!...

I am but I'm also an idealist. In this case, the realist won. I was willing to maintain the status quo for however long it took base on principle. But the hard reality is that would have cost me more in lost salary and retirement contributions over the long run. I have no problem with those that voted yes and respect their decision. We fought a long, hard, good fight and this is an outstanding contract.

 

[pipejockey]

Saying that "inflation" has gone up at a rate of 3% per year is far too simplistic. Yes, for a guy making $40k per year, his cost of living has gone up roughly 3% per year on average. But the same cannot be said for a guy making $140k per year, because the basket of goods used to calculate the CPI doesn't apply in the same way to him. For example, as a percentage of income the guy making $140k per year likely spends far less on groceries each year than the guy making $40k. So, if groceries go up in price by 5% this year, and that is calculated into the CPI basket of goods, it affects the guy making $40k a lot more than the guy making $140k.

In general, cost of living increases at a much lower rate for those making "high" incomes. If you're making six figures, your cost of living is not increasing at the same rate as the CPI.

Please don't defend management! I'll buy your cost of living argument in terms of it being more of a hardship on a guy earning 40 grand a year who doesn't get a cost of living raise that keeps up with inflation. But does the cost of luxury items not increase as well? Items that the guy at 40 grand can't afford? Homes, cars, vacations, hobbies. I don't feel as airline pilots we should have to reduce our way of life. The executives don't, management doesn't. As a matter of fact if you look at the average compensation of the those in the executive offices of corporate America in the 70's and how it compared to what their labor was earning, and make that same comparison today, you would be shocked!! The average CEO earned 40 times that of their labor in the 70's. Now it is 400 times!! So why don't all of the excuses management uses to reduce wages and benefits of labor today, go for them as well?? It's time we put a stop to it. And voting in contracts that merely sustain our earning power, earning power that has been decimated the past 10 years, is a total failure in my eyes.

 

[PCL_128]

Please don't defend management!

I'm not. I'm just telling you that your standard of success is not based in fact.

I'll buy your cost of living argument in terms of it being more of a hardship on a guy earning 40 grand a year who doesn't get a cost of living raise that keeps up with inflation. But does the cost of luxury items not increase as well? Items that the guy at 40 grand can't afford? Homes, cars, vacations, hobbies.

Of course the costs of those items increase, but those items are not included in the CPI. To get a true COLA calculation for major airline pilots, you would have to calculate a CPI based on an average basket of goods for individuals making $60k-$220k. And the truth is, you'd have to break it down for FOs and CAs, because the CPI would be different for each.

Of course, you don't really need to do this. On average, the CPI for those making higher incomes is lower than for those making average incomes. Take the government CPI and lower it by 1 or 2 percent and you'll get pretty close.

And voting in contracts that merely sustain our earning power, earning power that has been decimated the past 10 years, is a total failure in my eyes.

I agree that we're still a long way from where we were 10 years ago, but we aren't going to be able to make the jump in one bargaining cycle. Sorry, but the NMB just isn't going to allow it. Take a look at what's happening over at American. The APA keeps demanding 53% pay raises, so the NMB finally just stopped scheduling any negotiating dates. They're getting nowhere, and they never will until they adjust their demands. Is this fair? Of course not, but as my father always told me, life ain't fair. You have to work within the range that the NMB finds reasonable, otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels indefinitely. A good goal is to take the highest paying group in the industry and try to top it by a few percent. Anything more than that and the NMB is just going to laugh at you.

 

[shmenter]

. . . almost . . .

I started reading the first thread of this page and found it very refreshing. It sure is nice to see a positive post followed by mostly positive comments for once on flight info. . . . Then when things seemed to good to be true, they were and I read page two. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and we have no shortage of takers in this country.

To the HA guys, it sounds like to me that with all things considered (especially the timing of contract negotiations in this current economy) you guys hit a home run. How many are losing jobs and watching their pay drop? I am happy for you. Can things be better? Sure. But could they be worse? you know thats true as well.

At any rate, sure is nice to see something getting better.

 

[pipejockey]

I agree that we're still a long way from where we were 10 years ago, but we aren't going to be able to make the jump in one bargaining cycle. Sorry, but the NMB just isn't going to allow it. Take a look at what's happening over at American. The APA keeps demanding 53% pay raises, so the NMB finally just stopped scheduling any negotiating dates. They're getting nowhere, and they never will until they adjust their demands. Is this fair? Of course not, but as my father always told me, life ain't fair. You have to work within the range that the NMB finds reasonable, otherwise you'll just be spinning your wheels indefinitely. A good goal is to take the highest paying group in the industry and try to top it by a few percent. Anything more than that and the NMB is just going to laugh at you.

Sounds to me like we need to get out from under the RLA! And the only chance albeit remote, is within the next 3 years. Once the richpublicans, errr I mean the REpublicans get the white house back, we are royally screwed again, as opposed to just being plain screwed as we are now. More simply put, it's the difference between taking it by a 6 incher (Dems) or a footlong (repubs).

Also, I seriously doubt Obama would interfere with a labor groups right to self help. If anything, he would encourage management to just get a contract signed by letting them know he will not order pilots back to work. the repubs on the other hand, would just find some way to enact yet more labor screwing laws.

 

[PCL_128]

Sounds to me like we need to get out from under the RLA!

The NLRA has more problems with it than the RLA does. As bad as the RLA is, it works far better for us than the alternative.

Also, I seriously doubt Obama would interfere with a labor groups right to self help.

I'm always glad to see a pilot that understands the importance of politics to our profession, but I think you're taking it a step too far. President Obama is very pro-labor, and we've got a damned good NMB right now, but they are all still politicians, and they can only push management so far. Expecting an immediate jump back to pre-9/11 wages simply isn't going to happen. We can get back there, but it's going to take two bargaining cycles to make it happen. We'll make it most of the way by the end of this bargaining cycle, but not quite the whole way.

 

[FlickerFade]

If you figuring liars want to enter reality consider this:

10 years of a contract, say 2% per year cola, that's 20%, add contractual raises and we're looking at 40% pay raises over the course of this contract? Keeping all of the gains made in retirement? AND a 40% raise? Would not have happened.

You also have to factor in upgrades and longevity raises.

As I said, no one has to convince you all who don't work at Hawaiian. I personally will take my contract over airtran's, happily.

Expecting a $70 per hour raise while under federal mediation?? really? To the tune of a $240/hour pay rate? We were not going to get it, even with Presidential influence.

 

[IAHERJ]

pipejockey,

It's easy to sit on the outside and pontificate without having any of the inside information.

I said many of the same things you posted and more during the voting to other HA pilots. But the reality is that our new contract puts us at the top of the pay scale for narrow body aircraft and 767s, and only below Delta for A330s. Plus our work rules, benefits and retirement are also some of the best in the industry. It is hard to get more when you're at or near the top in some areas and being offered increases to at or near the top in the others. If we had voted this down, the NMB probably would not have released us for a strike for years. In fact, they would probably have parked the negotiations for a long time before they got involved again and it probably would have been another 2 years before we got a contract. Despite this, there were 17% of us that voted. But I full understand why the other 83% voted yes. While I personally think we could have done better, I am very happy with what we got. We have outstanding pay, work rules, benefits and retirement. It is not a contract to be whine about or be ashamed of. It is damn good.

Edit: The other obstacle to HA pilots ever being released by the NMB for a strike was the fact that Hawaii's economy and people are extremely dependent on our inter-island flying. The NMB is mandated to consider this and it was suggested to us that this would preclude our being released to strike with the current economy and lack of inter-island options. We are a victim of our own success.

Your 767 CA pay is almost $30 bucks an hour less than current CAL 12 year 767 CA pay. How can this be at "the top of the pay scale"? Sure it will beat us in just under 6 years but hopefully we will have our 767 CA pay around $240 an hour by then(and have UAL close to leapfrogging that as they hammer out their contract).