Guns in the Cockpit

[gmbpilot757]

Hey everyone-

I'm a student at Embry Riddle in Prescott. This is my first post, although I have been monitoring the forum for a bit...my buddy FalconCpt. got me here. Anyway I'd like to know what all you pilots for the majors think about "Gun's in the cockpit" policy? I'd like to get your opinions. This is all for a policy paper which I'm doing on Gun's in the cockpit. If you'd like to give me a little of info I would appriciate it. If you know any good sites for this subject I'd appriciate it a bunch.

Thanks ahead of time. If you'd like to email me as well that'd be great, gmbpilot757@hotmail.com

Thanks again and fly safe...Godspeed!

 

[hopeful]

Do a search on this forum. There have been several discussions about this subject. Go to the search ICON on the top of the page and type in "guns in cockpit." Hope that helps.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

A recent poll of jetBlue's 511 pilots showed that 80% of the respondents disapprove of weapons in the cockpit. With the cameras installed allowing the pilots a good view of the cabin, our newest kevlar reinforced door and titanium deadbolts (the locking mechanism is only operable by the pilots), the need for arming the pilots is not considered necessary-- no one will bypass the locked door in flight. Furthermore, the addition of a weapon in the cockpit introduces many security issues. One other concept to consider is the training that will be required. Air Marshalls are required to hit something like 7/7 head shots to pass their final exam-- what will the pilot standards be? What happens if you don't meet the "standards"? One final thought-- if the weapon is stored in the cockpit, how will it be accessed in an emergency? Heck, the first person I'd probably shoot in the surprised moment as I retrieve the weapon would by my first officer!!!

 

[flyndesk]

BLUE brings up some great points.

Also, what kind of security is there for the weapon when the pilot is at the hotel for the layover? Or walking through the airport? I think pilots have enough responsibilities and things on their minds not to have to add this one on- one that certainly goes to the top of the list. It is difficult to get through security as it is- we always get stopped and wanded and searched.

There might be more incidents and accidents with the weapon than situations where it would be used to defend the cockpit.

I am sure many pilots, especially ex-military pilots, have had extensive experience with weapons. I know a lot of pilots that hunt and own rifles and such. But I don't think they belong up front. Just my two cents.

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, we all have opinions, and I respectfully disagree with both of you guys.

Ever notice those little TCAS targets on your tail sometimes? They are usually in 2's and 3's, and they have the altitude squawk suppressed so you don't get an RA. You ever wonder what they're practicing for on your tail? Uhh Huhhh. LEt's face it, there are many ways to get a weapon on board an airplane, and I want my chance to defend the cockpit before I am blown out o f the sky by our very own military, for crying out loud.

The way that I look at it, with proper screening and training, the more weapons we can get in the cockpit the better. It is one hell of a deterrent . . . . . why try to hijack an airliner when it means you're probably going to be shot dead?

I see the guns being installed, like a PBE, in a locked, clear compartment. Check out the seal as a preflight item . . . if it is missing, the airplane is grounded until MX comes out and starts the ball rolling- MEL, cops, etc.

BTW, you already have some good weapons, in the form of a flare pistol (think flaming 12 guage) a fire extinguisher (temporary blindness, followed by a skull bashing) and, of course, everyone's favorite, the crah axe.

 

[ATKTK]

For good info on Guns in the cockpit, look at
http://www.secure-skies.org/PilotForm.asp
This should answer any questions you have about what is going on with the current efforts to arm pilots.

 

[XGmaninGA]

The info I'm getting, from people involved in the program is this. You will be deputized under the U.S. Marshalls service, justl like FAMs. You will have federal concealed carry credentials. You will carry your own weapon and be responsible for it, just like the FBI, FAMS, etc.

 

[skiddriver]

The other thing to note here is that this program has been passed into law, and neither the individual airlines or their representatives can over rule a pilot's participation in it. The Chief pilot may not like it, your cockpit mate may not like it, but once you're trained and certified, you can carry in the cockpit (unless the law is amended).

I hope that the people administering the program do set a high standard for both marksmanship and personal responsibility for the program. As anyone who has carried 24/7 for an extended period can tell you, it's a big responsibility and it can limit your day-to-day activities (no drinking, where do you stow it during PT, etc.). Maintaining a high level of shooting capability requires regular practice, so a participating pilot is going to have to be motivated and be willing to spend the bucks for ammo as well.

When I was OIC of special ops training school for the West Coast Marines, we took recon Marines and in about 3 weeks trained them to national standards in long and short gun discriminate shooting. While most were good shots with a rifle, most first-timers had never fired the SOC 45 or MP-5. We had a low attrition rate and very few safety drops (though we had some). It's a matter of focus, situational awareness and personal responsibility; things that I think most pilots are pretty good at.

A gun is a tool. It's neither good or evil in and of itself. Some people who are unfamiliar with weapons act as if they are the metallic equivalent of a p*ssed-off rattlesnake. Having spent most of my life around weapons, I assert that it just ain't so. It's an inert object, it's the person carrying it that makes it dangerous or not.

 

[Falconjet]

Guns and security screening

I figure that if I'm able to carry a gun through security maybe I'll be able to carry my little pair of scissors and finger nail clippers through as well. That alone would be worth the hassle of having to qualify and buy ammo. Maybe the screeners would leave us alone if we were packing heat!

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I want to participate in the program simply so I can have a badge and never get another speeding ticket! Carrying the gun would just be an added bonus...

All jokes aside, this could be a very worthwhile program if administered and monitored properly. As a previous post stated, if the unthinkable happens again, a firearm may possibly make the difference between defending the flight deck to a safe landing or being shot down by the USAF.

I want as many defenses as possible against the bad guys.

 

[Slug]

demo tape

There was a demo tape on the internet a while back (about a year ago) that American Pilots had on one of their pages that showed some special forces guys storming two cockpits - one defended (poorly) by a taser and one by a 9mm. Anyone know the link. It was quite a good demo.

Slug

 

[jon coqtoestone]

A gun is a tool. It's neither good or evil in and of itself. Some people who are unfamiliar with weapons act as if they are the metallic equivalent of a p*ssed-off rattlesnake. Having spent most of my life around weapons, I assert that it just ain't so. It's an inert object, it's the person carrying it that makes it dangerous or not.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I heard about:

"Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns."

Cheers!

 

[Clownpilot]

Sense?

1) In the last extremities, when they've killed the flight attendants and they're smashing down the cockpit door with the 300 lb drink cart, I guess some of you will choose prayer over having the last say about whether you and every person on that airplane lives or dies. Frankly I want the option of shooting him rather than having him just kill me and take my airplane. I don't understand anybody who doesn't want that chance. Plus, having a terrorist know you might be armed is the deterrence we need to keep him from trying it in the first place.

2) I don't have to practice regularily. This is for someone in a confined space less than 5 feet away trying to grab me. I'm not gonna be standing in the cockpit door trying to get a head shot on a terrorist in the aft galley at 150 ft. Assuming I can pull the trigger I'll hit him at that range.

3) Carrying a gun is a responsibility just as flying 200 people at a time around is. My responsibility is to keep them alive by keeping me alive and not surrendering control of a 400,000 lb aircraft to anyone. As for accidents, well on occasion, here and there, my "carelessness" while cleaning the gun in the cockpit is gonna gain me a seniority number. But I'd think after 2 or 3 "accidents" the company is probably gonna catch on.

 

[CRJFlyer]

From what I've heard each and every pilot will have the OPTION of carrying or not.. Of course they will go through the training to carry etc.. On the overnights and such there can be no drinking or anything else of that nature.. But I also heard something about being able to choose whether or not you carry it for that particular trip.So say a trip to New Orleans would mean you'd leave your piece at home. Security would be vastly different for those carrying.I would assume it would much like a police officer going through the detector while in uniform, while working at the terminal..

Hey Blue Bayou, I know what the cameras are really going to be used for..looking at my ex-girlfriend bend over while giving the blue chips to the passengers in row one. When we broke up all the good guys at JB were trying to get in her pants.

 

[flyndesk]

why try to hijack an airliner when it means you're probably going to be shot dead?

You make some valid points, except for this one. Suicide and martydom is the ultimate sacrifice to these "people", with promises in the afterlife (ie, the guys on 9/11, suicide bombers, etc.)

I will still choose not to carry. You may carry, your choice.

Funny note, my buddy is a police officer. His friend in the FBI was flying as an LEO (Law Enforcement Officer, so with his gun) on a US airline. He got the gun through security ok, but the confiscated his Swiss Army knife. I kid you not.

 

[FastCargo]

For what it's worth...

Personally, I do agree with having firearms in the cockpit. That being said, I think there will be some difficulties in implementing the program (security concerns and controls, proficiency, etc).

I liked Ty Webbs suggestion, with the weapons being part of the aircraft checklist. In addition, I would suggest:

1) The lock box is a two-person concept, the captain and F/O getting a separate combo at dispatch for the locks. The combos would be changed by MX at every crew change before reissue.

2) The preflight would consist of opening the container, checking the firearm is in place (with a breakable seal on the firearm itself) then closing the container in a ready-open manner - say a one digit tick to reopen, or something to that effect...

3) The weapon would be a special type, with non standard caliber (.42 cal, etc)...or even a special shaped bullet (oval cross section, etc). The weapon would also be useless once completely expended (ie an intergal magazine, etc). The weapons and ammo would serialed, and associated with that exact aircraft serial number.

4) The ammo could be the plastic slug type...or glazer (sp?) safety slug type...low chance of bulkhead penetration, but devestating when hitting human flesh. Remember, the weapon/ammo combo doesn't have to be super accurate...you're only shooting a max of 2 yards...

5) Postflight would consist of respinning the combo locks...

I think the initial cost would be high (R/D for the weapon, lockbox, documentation, implementation)...but then the actual day to day ops would be fairly low on the pain scale.

This is just one man's opinion ... plus I'll the first to note I have probably overlooked some critical sticking points. Any and all constructive points of view are welcome.

Fly Safe!

FastCargo

 

[Patriot328]

Here's the link from APA's website showing the video they made with the Taser and the gun.


http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/InfoCenter/streaming_media.asp

 

[Slug]

Good Video

Thanks Patriot

 

[ETXflyer]

Agree/Disagree

FastCargo, I must agree that I can't imaging why a thinking, reasonable person would not think that guns are a good idea, but I've got to disagree with you about the lock box stuff. Guns aren't nukes. If a pilot wants to carry, then they should be trained and certified to do so without a bunch of hoops to jump through. Commissioned law enforcement officers are allowed to carry on flights without any special "lock boxes" and I don't see any reason why a person who is responsible enough to make it in our business wouldn't be responsible enough to carry and keep up with a firearm. I am glad to see this finally make it in to law and I hope that a simple program is put discretely into place at all carriers. Just my .02
ETX