Gulfstream

[Lord Wakefield]

I'm not surprised he was a captain

 

[Lord Wakefield]

CRJ200F/O

Can't understand why the rest of the message got truncated.

A GIA captain washing out is hardly surprising and those of you Bug-Smasher PICs should take note. Historically, those who went thru the F/O programme faired better on the outside than those who went thru the capt. programmme.

3M for years has taken guys who were CFIs and made them captains w/o ever serving as F/Os. They would say, "but all my time is PIC" True enough, it'll get you thru GIA's training but your years spent there will re-inforce your bad habits.

These were precisely the guys who could have benefited from a couple hundred hours in the right seat with a seasoned capt (hard to find at 3M to-day); someone who could get thru to them early enough in their career to make a difference.

This is not to say that some 'PIC-only' types did not go on to successful careers. With persistance and a good attitude, you can surmount anything.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Since leaving 3M, I've gone on to much better things. Flown a lot of good aircraft as F/O, captain, and check airman. Been to a lot of place besides flat, sunny Florida and the Bahamas. Haven't been able to return to Cuba though; that's a privilege of working for GIA.

Now with years separating that time and a whole lot of flight experience in between, I think I can report in camera about my tenure at 3M.

With the exception of my first hundred hours of primary instruction (prior to ratings), I think that hour per hour my time in the right seat at 3M was the most valuable in my career. At least the first 200 hrs.

It didn't prepare me for everything and certainly was not pleasant.

Sure the training sucked, the instructors were idiots afraid to fly the line, and the planes should have been grounded if only to fumigate.

But as someone who arrived barely able to speak on the radio, I was able to hone my skills in a short time. It was better than putting my still wet CFII to use. But, what a much better CFII am I now.

It's preposterous that we think that it's acceptable that someone with no experience can be a CFII. But, someone seeking experience can't fly with an experienced captain.

I'm not denigrating CFIIs. Most are dedicated individuals but the skills learnt thru instruction are neither as many nor as applicable. When you're able to look back you'll see.

As a 3M F/O, I not only learnt from the seasoned captains but also the ones I had to baby sit (the CFI $15,000 wonders)

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Please, don' t anyone construe what I've said as an endorsement of the programme or airline. For nothing would please me more than to see both shut down.

There are many reasons I'd suggest someone not go here.

1. It costs a lot of money and you may lose it all thru no fault of your own

2. You could get violated by the FAA or raped by the company

3. Training sucks

4. check airman are morons

5. You get complacent about the wrong things ( I never realised who screwed up the place was till I left)

6. You won't be a scab, but you run the risk of being infected with the scab mentality for it's the surest way to get ahead there.

7. Consider what the idiots on the outside are saying. They may be wrong but they're hell bent to prove that they're right.


Number seven (7) requires some clarification. That you'd be branded a scab by ALPA is nonsense. But what about those who say "your time at 3M is worthless" , "you didn't pay your dues", "you cut in front of me." Right or wrong there are a lot of people who hold to these convictions; just look at this board. And, it's very likely that one of them is going to sit in judgement of you as an interviewer or your check airman.
The point is that this is a very jealous profession. A chief pilot doesn't want to hire someone more qualified than himself (who could take his job). And these others will make an example of you to affirm their beliefs not reject them.


I WOULD NEVER GO THROUGH THE PROGRAMME IF I HAD TO DO IT OVER.

 

[dondk]

This is getting ridiculous!

CRJ200FO...

Check your facts a little better next time. There was only one GIA pilot to wash out of trng. He was a CA at GIA and had many thousands of hours. The probable cause for his washout was the fact that his name can be found listed on the scab list for the CAL '83 strike. I guess the check airman took care of the situation since HR didn't. The 500 hour GIA pilot succussfully passed his checkride and is now in MEM with a hard line.

Without splitting hairs... I had my PC about 2 weeks ago, I sat in on a sim session (#4) with a GIA and a furloughed dude. These guys had there sim session before my warm-up everytime. What should have been #6 he (the GIA dude) was gone. His instructor was my sandbag for my PC, he confirmed that he left the program. According to the some of contract instructors, in the past few months he was not the first.

Speaking about SCAB lists, in my class (over a year ago) resided a EAL scab who was upgrading to CA in the RJ. He made it to CA, so I do not think we really judge to harshly on "scabs".

I am not against you or any other GIA dude. You earned the seat, it is yours...
My problem is something else. I saw this during my time at MESA and seeing some hints of it at PCL now...

At Mesa a few (and it really only takes one) of the San Juan program dudes got hired into jet with about 300 hrs or less. They "felt" they were basically Gods because the got the right seat BEFORE any of the other guys hired with 1500, 2000 or more hours. If you got the job.. Congrats!!! and I mean that honestly, but do not think you are better than a guy with 2, 3 or 4 times the hours. Experience counts, and money cannot replace hard earned experience. I cannot "buy" the experience or the knowlledge a guy who has 2,3 or 4 times the hours that I have.

My point of the 3 year comment was not to diss you... I have a hard time understanding why someone would take a job at a regional where it is well known that you are not going anywhere for 3-5 years (and that is from right seat to left seat).

What happens in 3 years if we get no more jets? What happens if (and we will shortly) go to upgrades based on senority instead of time? Your probably holding a senority number of about 500. 84 jets equals about 420 Captains, and that is not counting the guys they have hired after you who WILL have the 3000 before you do.

While the days of the 6 month or less upgrades are gone, there are a few regionals who have upgrades under a year (in the 1900). Would you not want to upgrade in 18 months and ride out the next 2-3 years as a captain getting that PIC versus ride out the right seat for the same time?

Again.. we are on the same team, I consider you a fellow brother in Pinnacle and I am not out to diss you.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: This is getting ridiculous!

CRJ200FO...



Without splitting hairs... I had my PC about 2 weeks ago, I sat in on a sim session (#4) with a GIA and a furloughed dude. These guys had there sim session before my warm-up everytime. What should have been #6 he (the GIA dude) was gone. His instructor was my sandbag for my PC, he confirmed that he left the program. According to the some of contract instructors, in the past few months he was not the first.

Speaking about SCAB lists, in my class (over a year ago) resided a EAL scab who was upgrading to CA in the RJ. He made it to CA, so I do not think we really judge to harshly on "scabs".

I am not against you or any other GIA dude. You earned the seat, it is yours...
My problem is something else. I saw this during my time at MESA and seeing some hints of it at PCL now...

At Mesa a few (and it really only takes one) of the San Juan program dudes got hired into jet with about 300 hrs or less. They "felt" they were basically Gods because the got the right seat BEFORE any of the other guys hired with 1500, 2000 or more hours. If you got the job.. Congrats!!! and I mean that honestly, but do not think you are better than a guy with 2, 3 or 4 times the hours. Experience counts, and money cannot replace hard earned experience. I cannot "buy" the experience or the knowlledge a guy who has 2,3 or 4 times the hours that I have.

My point of the 3 year comment was not to diss you... I have a hard time understanding why someone would take a job at a regional where it is well known that you are not going anywhere for 3-5 years (and that is from right seat to left seat).

What happens in 3 years if we get no more jets? What happens if (and we will shortly) go to upgrades based on senority instead of time? Your probably holding a senority number of about 500. 84 jets equals about 420 Captains, and that is not counting the guys they have hired after you who WILL have the 3000 before you do.

While the days of the 6 month or less upgrades are gone, there are a few regionals who have upgrades under a year (in the 1900). Would you not want to upgrade in 18 months and ride out the next 2-3 years as a captain getting that PIC versus ride out the right seat for the same time?

Again.. we are on the same team, I consider you a fellow brother in Pinnacle and I am not out to diss you.

It's possible that someone washed out a couple of weeks ago. I might not have heard about it yet. As of last month though, no GIA pilots have washed out except for the CA I mentioned.

I think I know the CA you're referring to, and I'm pretty sure he did not SCAB at EAL. I might be thinking of someone else though. Was this CA hired off the street to the left seat? If so, he's not a big fan of ALPA but he did not scab at EAL. I checked the list.

I agree with you that experience is very important. However, you can't say without a doubt that someone with 2,500 hours of dual given is a better pilot than someone with 1,000 total of which most is 121 turbine time. There are guys that come from GIA that don't deserve to be here, and there are CFI's with thousands of hours that get hired that don't deserve to be here. You have to look at the individual and not just the flight time. Total time is only part of the picture.

As for 3 years in the right seat, there are several reasons why I would rather be here than at a 1900 operator. I have friends from GIA that went to several different 1900 operators with upgrade times under 18 months. Their quality of life is terrible, and judging by the current industry conditions, they won't be leaving for a major for many years. The PIC time is not really that important when the industry is in such bad shape. I knew I would be stuck at a regional for at least 3-5 years. I might as well be flying a good aircraft and have a decent quality of life. My friends at Colgan only have 10 days off, it's mostly uncommutable, fly over 100 hours a month, and get paid slightly less than us. By comparison I have 15 days off this month, it's all commutable, I am able to be based within a two hour drive of home in Ohio, and the pay is slightly more than what the 1900 operators pay. I'm very happy with the decision I made. Besides, I think we will get more than the 84 guaranteed planes and will need many more CA's than you think. We'll probably end up lowering the 3,000 total for upgrade requirement within the next 2 years. That comes straight from TM.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

and your time in the CRJ will pay off. The 1900 is just a general aviation airplane

 

[dondk]

I think I know the CA you're referring to, and I'm pretty sure he did not SCAB at EAL. I might be thinking of someone else though. Was this CA hired off the street to the left seat? If so, he's not a big fan of ALPA but he did not scab at EAL. I checked the list.

Actually he was a Saab Captain that upgraded last year... I found it interesting that he was filling out paperwork to rejoin ALPA. I cannot tell you what happened regarding that issue. His name was clearly listed in the scab list that is floating around the internet (page 34). Regardless, he is no longer with us for other reasons, but he was with us for some time.

You have to look at the individual and not just the flight time. Total time is only part of the picture.

I agree with you 100%, there are people at EVERY airline that you have to wonder "how did they get hired!"

I personally hope we do get some of those additional 45 firm orders NWA has for the CRJ. I also hope Mesaba gets some of them too. As for Captains.. who knows.. although I doubt they will drop the 3500TT mark anytime soon, especially with the NWA guys coming over. While at the annex for recurrent , they were interviewing mostly dudes in the mid to high 2000 range. Who knows?

We are in the airlines anything you hear today is subject to change 5 times before the end of the week and do not believe anything until it has been in palce for at least 6 months!