Gulfstream Academy

[mkingmei]

I am looking for any information(positive or negative... please back it up)on Gulfstream Academy in Fort Lauderdale. It sounds like a pretty good deal for a low timer.

 

[20sx]

You're gonna get flamed with this subject.

 

[mkingmei]

20sx, i understand that it might be a touchy subject but lets only offer information, not whether or not i am going to catch
a bunch of S#@T. thank you for your concern though.

 

[flydog]

Gulfstream is a good idea if you want to accomplish the following:

1. Accelerate your career by skipping years of learning from experience which is essential to becoming a good Captain. You will not have an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and accumulate knowledge from having been there and done that.

2. Put passengers at risk by putting a low time (250 hr) pilot in the right seat that may someday be called upon to deal with a serious emergency when the Captain is unable to. In our company we had a Captain die of a heart attack in a Challenger in flight. It is possible and it has happened.

3. Lower the average pay scales that an experienced and qualified pilot commands by giving away your services for free (whore?). If Gulfstream couldnt find people to pay for a job they would be forced to hire experience pilots at an industry average wage

4. Put an ugly black mark on your resume that everyone who reviews it will know you paid for your job instead of working your way up

My advice is use your money to build ratings, get your CFI and either instruct, tow banners or crop dust so you can learn to be an aviator not just an airline whore.

 

[Humblepilot]

In Addition

I believe they are still running the new hire program while there are pilots out on furlough. I guess it depends on your morals.

It took me ten years (CFI, Corporate, Regional Flying) to make it to the right seat at a major airline and every year of struggle was worth it, even with the furlough.

Be very careful with your choices.

Humble

 

[publisher]

no answer

This is an area that gets beat to death on this board. Without knowing more about your situation, there is no answer at all.

Gulfstream is a reputable company, has several programs that are what they are, may or may not be right for you. I have no reason to think that there training is not satisfactory.

I talk to their students all the time and no one has complained to me that they did not get what they paid for.

The fact is that there are and will be more and more of these programs. People putting out the money for good training today want to know they will have a place to go or at least a guaranteed interview.

The other fact is that companies want multi engine turbine time. It is hard to get. That is an advantage of these programs. Would it be better if you started flying at 14 with grandpa in his Tripacer. got your licence, were a CFI and teaching, etc. Who knows.

Everyone is an individual. Some get it in 500 hours, some not in a lifetime.

 

[flydog]

whore

 

[flydog]

Publisher endorses companies like AEPS, Climbto350, UPAS, Gulfstream. etc who make a profit from exploiting pilots and those who dream of an airline career. Dont fall for it. Youll be doing yourself and a lot of hard working pilots a disservice by paying for a career you should earn on your own and lining the pockets of greedy scum at the same time

 

[mkingmei]

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who has ever paid for their training is ruining the entire airline industry and dragging down the pay scales? I know several people that have gone that route (PFT) and now have very successful major airline careers.
It is not the employee (read PFT employee) that has created a pay scale of what could be poverty level in some cases; it is management (as well as supply and demand). And if you want to talk about pay dues and gaining experience, that is one form of it. Low pay, little or no benefits, long hours and perhaps no union representation is part of paying on the way to the majors.

PFT doesn't make one a bad person, or a whore, as you so beautifully put it. It is simply a choice one has to make; whether or not they will do it. So in all reality one can either pay now or later...it is coming out of your packet somewhere.

I am not here to start a pissing contest about what is right and wrong, I am simply asking for fact based information about this company so I
can make an educated decision about my future.

Thank you to everyone so far that has been kind enough to offer up their information.

 

[Wiggums]

Management can create low pay scales, however, it's the pilots that choose to work in such absurd conditions. You're going to make a conscious choice to pay for a seat that would normally go to a pilot that would be paid a fair wage. That is how your dragging down pay scales, if people wouldn't work for free then the average pay would have to increase. You'll have to decide if it's best for you to step on everyone else on your way to the top, while hurting the common good.

Moreover, don't believe that you'll be “paying your dues” going to Gulfstream. There will always be fellow pilots that look down on people that PFT, even if they happen to work for a major. There are plenty of places where you can work for low pay, with long hours and no union without shelling out the big bucks.

 

[RueterF16]

Confused..

I think some of you are confused about the airline industry and low payscales... The industry as a whole isn't going to be damaged by pilots paying for training, or paying to get their flight time with a company. The payscales are the way they are because that is what the economy will support. Now, I know that you will say that unions have helped acheive a nice payscale for their members and there are a lot of benefits to a union, they have and there are but, it hasn't come without it's costs. Most of those costs are in the furloughs of junior members. A pilot paying for training is not harming the industry in anyway. The fact is, there are more pilots out there than there are positions to fill... plain and simple that gives the companies the chance to lower their payscales. You have your options, Either get rid of 10-20,000 pilots and make that margin a little better, call an industry wide strike (which will never happen) and keep people from training anymore to insure your job security, OR live with the fact that airline companies are going to pay you what you're worth (in their eyes, not yours). If you don't want to settle for a lower paying airline job... don't bother applying to that company, you would be better suited getting a higher paying non-flying job and flying private on the side.

 

[airmack]

Gulfstream reply...

Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life. Given the opportunity, I am quite sure that many, if not all the pilots, who bash pay-for-training programs, would be the first in line to go to Southwest Airlines (where you pay for your type rating). I am currently with GIA, and being ex-military the GOV. picked up the majority of my training expense. All this garbage about being marked on your resume is just that! GARBAGE! Our guys are getting picked up with the majors just like everyone else. To answer your question, would I recommend this program? Yes, but not at this time. The airline industry is on hold so there is no flow within the company. All the non-permanent F/O's are getting the 250 hours and being let go. Within a couple of months, we will be receiving our first ATR’s from Co-Ex. Continental plans on making our entire fleet ATR. When this happens, you can say good-bye to the academy. I hope this helps. If you have anymore questions drop me a line. God Bless!

 

[Wiggums]

Re: Gulfstream reply...

Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life.

Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

A real job is where you get paid a fair market wage. At a real job the company picks up the training costs. At a real job they won't kick you to the curb after 250 hours so they can get another sucker to pony up 20k.

mkingmei: You're 325hrs short of Part 135 IFR mins. Get that and find a 135 job. You'll save $20,000 and get some better experience.

 

[publisher]

response

I would remind flydog of a few things.

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

4. I do not endorse Climbto350, I think he takes jobs from others web sites and the companies do not use him as he represents.

5. I have started three aviation companies that employ pilots and still do today. If I did them again today, I would use AEPS type of services.

6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, Guys, but I have to weigh in here.

As someone who has been following this board for the past four years (and others, some now defunct), and as someone who was looking for their first job during the PFT days of the mid 1990's, I feel pretty qualified to comment.

1) Gulfstream rents out the right seat to suckers willing to pay $18,000. for 250 hours.

2) If some pilots were not willing to pay for this seat, then GIA would be forced to actually hire and pay pilots to serve as SIC (what a concept).

3) Many of the "pilots" willing to rent that seat are from outside the US. [Why they are still allowed to get VISAs for these people is beyond me].

4) Most people who were around during the days of PFT chose NOT to pay. Those going to Comair, COEX, ACA and a few others did, but the vast majority of us did not- and it was not because we couldn't pay for it-
almost any pilot who had invested the time and money necessary to get the ratings could find somewhere to come up with $7,000. bucks, which was usually financed by the airline itself. No, most of us chose not to pay, because it seemed morally repugnant and unprofessional.

5) Those of us who chose NOT to PFT resent those who DID, and if I have a choice of hiring someone who got their experience legitimately, or hiring someone who paid money to get out of building that experience, guess who I'm going to hire?

6) At the last three companies I worked for (2 of which were in FL) we routinely received resumes from GIA guys. All of them went into the trash, at all three employers, even when we needed SIC's for our Metros. That's a fact. Chief Pilots do NOT like pilots who made a paying job disappear, and that's exactly what GIA does.

"Publisher"s bizarre statement that what GIA is doing is OK because they started by renting out the right seat in CE402's when an F/O was not required has no correlation with what they are doing today, and I would be willing to bet that an F/O was required, because they probably chose not to keep the autopilots operable, since they had a paying autopilot in the right seat.

 

[Jboss]

Wow.

Maybe you should consider going a bit easier on the PFT guys and Gals. I'm not one of them, but I work with a lot of them. Such was the business when they got in, and I don't blame them. Maybe it was a stupid and unfair system, but that was the system, and for some it was the best option considering every factor in their lives at the time. I just can't imagine ever discriminating against these very talented pilots in a hiring situation based solely on the fact that they pft'ed. When you interview somebody, you hire them based in large part on how they interviewed....you know, on personality. I just think you'd be selling yourself short and missing out on some great folks. But to each his own.

Fly safe

 

[jaybird]

To me it's a question of character. Put two people in the same interview. Both are great people, great pilots and meet the same minimums, however one is a PFT'er and the other worked his way up the food chain. Who would you want to choose?

It says something about a person who wants the easy way out, or into a cockpit I know I am still a neophyte in this industry, but I know taking the longer road will be more fulfilling in the end.

 

[mkingmei]

thats enough

well i think we have moved off of the topic of my original post. I want to say thank you to the people who actually tried to give me information and no thanks to the people who used this as there own personal soap box.

all i asked for was information, i didn't ask whether anyone thought it was ."morally repugnant or unprofessional". no one ever thinks that in the long run it creates a paying job for what might be a great pilot or maybe even your best friend some day.

think about this for a second... is PFT any different then those of you that daddy bought an airplane for????????

just as a side note... has anyone done the math on 250 hours for $19800? very similar to an hour of C172 time.

thanks again

 

[airmack]

Re: Re: Gulfstream reply...

Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

In reference to your statement. Prior to going to GIA I was a mechanic in the military for 8 year busting my knuckles on fighters, while you were at your house watching Mr. Rogers and whining to your mom about kids that cut in front of you at the water fountain. I am a true believer in investing for your future. Your probably still waiting for someone to pay for your college degree. Give me a break! I didn't pay 19,800 for 250 hours. I paid $7500 for 250 hours, my Uncle Sam paid the rest. If you do the math, it's $30 per flight hour. Not a bad investment from my point of view.

 

[flydog]

To Publisher:

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

So what. They continue to charge $100 and up for people
to update resumes at airlines who are
obviously not hiring. Cheating these people out of money
by giving them false hope of a job is a scam


2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

Gulfstream isnt in the business to help people as you try
to convince us. Their only interest is their bottom line.
If Gulfstream didnt exist their business would go to a
legitimate Regional Airline that hires experienced pilots
for honest pay



3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

All of us have and there is nothing wrong for it. There is
also nothing wrong with paying for that time or reimbursing
the owner, etc. This is not the same as paying for a job.
When you bum a ride from someone you are not putting
another pilot out of work and lowering the industry
pay scales



6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.

Enron must also be a viable company since companies
worked with them ?!??

Charging people $20 head to sit in a room with 30 other
pilots to listen to a so called recuiter talk about his company
is a scam. Much like going to a Wade Cook investing seminar
The reason these companies work with AEPS is because
they profit from Air Fairs and seminars

 

[flydog]

Getting your 737 type rating is not the same as paying for a job. This is also like saying that paying for your own Private, Instrument, Commercial, and CFI is like paying Gulfstream $19,800 to work there.

A would be doctor obviously is expected to pay his or her way through medical school but if that same person then pays a hospital $20,000 to get a job there then obviosuly he/she is doing themselves, the medical profession, and their patients a great disservice

Get it?

Southwest does not directly profit from the 737 type rating schools. Their policy is a matter of tradition more than a profit motive. Furthermore it doesnt put other pilots out of work since the hiring standards are a lot higher than just checking for a pulse and having a check book as is the case at Gulfstream. As a matter of fact Southwest is one of the few majors that requires 1000 hrs of PIC Turbine and the first year FO pay is comparable or higher than the average airline.

I think the point of PFT is that inexperienced people are buying themselves a job. A pilot obtaining new ratings an paying for them out of their own pocket isnt the same thing

 

[chperplt]

We can argue all day long about the good and bad of a program such as Gulfstream's. The fact is that mkingmei has to what is right for him...

I can tell you this though. If you do chose to go that route, you will deal with the repercussions later in life. You won't have a problem getting a job after Gulfsteam. There are plenty of small regionals such as the one I fly for that will hire you without hesitation. The problems will come while you're out there flying the line. Many of the captains you fly with will have a problem with you and it will be an uncomfortable situation for a while until you prove your worth. And then it may still be a problem.

There were 3 Ex Gulfstream program guys in my class last Feb. All three of them could fly the 1900 just fine, but sure had a hell of time for the first 6 or 8 months flying the line. Captains didn't like the route they took and gave them grief about it..

Keep all this in mind when you make your decision. If you can deal with being treated like a sh!t head for a while....

Good luck with your decision

 

[Wiggums]

Re: Re: Re: Gulfstream reply...

In reference to your statement. Prior to going to GIA I was a mechanic in the military for 8 year busting my knuckles on fighters, while you were at your house watching Mr. Rogers and whining to your mom about kids that cut in front of you at the water fountain. I am a true believer in investing for your future. Your probably still waiting for someone to pay for your college degree. Give me a break! I didn't pay 19,800 for 250 hours. I paid $7500 for 250 hours, my Uncle Sam paid the rest. If you do the math, it's $30 per flight hour. Not a bad investment from my point of view.

Sorry, but my parents paid for college, and all my ratings. We had cable so I didn't watch much Mr. Rogers, and if a kid cut in front of me at the water fountain I would have kicked his ass. Alas, I guess I'm not worthy because I didn't spend eight years of my life as a grease monkey turning wrenches so I could take $12k in taxpayer's money to rent-a-seat at some two bit operation in FL. I hope you hate my guts because you just think that I'm some kid you got everything handed to him on a silver platter.

However you try to justify it, you're still taking a seat that should be filled by a paid pilot.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Gulfstream is not PFT

I think some people here are confusing paying for your training where when you are finished you have a job and paying money at Gulfstream to get a certain number of hours. When you are finished at Gulfstream you don't have a job.

You all might want to ease up on us PFT people a bit. Many of us happen to care about this profession a great deal but at certain times in this industry supply and demand rears its head. Don't think it won't happen again.

 

[BoredToDeath]

For What Its Worth

Lets try to put all this in a different perspective by taking aviation out of the picture. What other industry requires its employees to pay a fee to come to work for them? I don't know of any except of course a few aviation related ones. If a plumber just graduated plumbers school and went to look for work, having never work as a plumber yet, and the company he/she applied to said, " Yeh sure you can work here, BUT it will cost you such and such to do so" , what do you think that plumbers gonna say? I'm pretty sure that guy/gal would have some pretty choice words before exiting the interview. At least this was the answer I got from my cousin who happens to be one plumber out of God knows how many. I'm just trying to say that once the basics of training are over we should'nt have to continue to pay just to work.

The COMPANY should be responsible for its costs, not the employee. If the company can't do this, it should not be in business. Businesses should not be allowed to get away with this when they already get away with enough. Employees as a whole need to send a positive message that they will not be taken advantage of anymore. Don't buy you're job, you're better than that.

To the spelling police, sorry its late and I'm tired but can't sleep.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sure, you were making your own choice, but you hurt your profession when you did so.

When guys agreed to pay thousands of dollars to companies like Comair and COEX they not only jumped in front of other pilots who were more competitively qualified, they also caused the pay at the non-PFT carriers to suffer, as well.

Pilots trying to bring up their pay at non-PFT carriers like Eagle and Mesa heard management say, "Hey, at least you didn't have to pay for your training".

When I look back at the damage that was caused to the regional airline industry by people who agreed to pay for their own training, I find it sickening.