Gulfstream Academy Webcam

[searching]

Russian man, I agree with many of your points, but to say Gulfstream is the finest in the industry is a little bit of a stretch. I'm sure the training is good, it has to be to put low time guys into a very manual non-automated airplane like the 1900, but it is not THE best. Flight Safety, Riddle, UND, and some small FBO's as well, all offer excellent training as well.

And I gotta say, I myself think the FO deal is a great program, if you got the cash and or credit, but this deal with being able to outrighlty buy a job as a captain, as opposed to just flight time is an absolute low.

 

[The_Russian]

You are right, it is not the finest. But I would say it is comparable to the higher ups. GIA has my respect because of the employee professionalism. I attended FSI for my CFI and it was an outstanding school. Hopefully the Fast Track Captain program will die out because it will be to expensive or unpopular.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Since I went through the F/O program I have had 3 employement OFFERS from regional airlines. How many have you had?

I haven't applied to any because I don't meet the minimum time requirements. I did send a resume in to ASA a couple of years ago because I ran into 2 or 3 folks who had been hired there with less time than I had. So out of curiosity I sent a resume in (this was pre enlightenment as well). A week or so later a Flight Safety package came to the house. Guess what? I could buy an interview with ASA for $30,000 through Flight Safety. I got my answer. No thank you. I simply don't believe that people with low time (read low experience) have the foundation they need to haul people. As I said before I learned this first hand. I didn't do anything wrong. I did a good job, but again I didn't have the experience that I needed to be fully qualified for the position. The only way to get that is to fly and fly some more...repeat.

 

[bobbysamd]

"It's a rose, by any other name"

Gulfstream is not PFT. I'm not sure how many times I have to say it and I'm not in denial, so don't say I am. PFT is when you buy a job . . . . .

You did buy a job. You were paid $8 per hour during your 250 hours. It says so on the website, plain as day:

2. Will I really get paid while I'm flying co-pilot during the 250 programmed hours?
Answer: Yes, you will be paid, $8.00 per flight hour, commencing when you have completed the Initial Operating Experience requirement, for the balance of the 250 hours.

(emphasis added)

If you doing work and you are paid for that work, you are employed. You are flying for Gulfstream as an FO, you are being paid $8/hour to do so, so, therefore, Gulfstream has employed you. Because Gulfstream does not hire street FOs and because the only way that Gulfstream can employ you is if you P-F-T, you must remit money to Gulfstream for that opportunity. Therefore, you have paid for a job, albeit a temporary job, with Gulfstream.

Some of us get selected to stay on as "permanent hires" for different reasons . . . .

. . . . but to get that far you still must begin by paying Gulfstream money, up front. Moreover,

I work at GIA. I know what goes on here. I am not a regional pilot who bought my job. I earned it with time and service. I am not playing pilot. I am a flight crew member in a 121 operation.

(emphasis added)

No one doubts that you don't know what goes on there. Just the same, but for paying the $29,684, you would not have been employed at Gulfstream. I would assume that you would put down your Gulfstream experience on a job app as work experience, not "intern" or "other" experience. So, there again, it would be employment.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Finally, you guys really should be upset at Gulfstream for starting its P-F-T captain program. The least it should do is let you sign up for it, grandfather you into it, give you seniority numbers, and credit what you paid for the FO program toward the P-F-T captain program.

 

[rumpletumbler]

What do Captains make....like $12 an hour?

 

[The_Russian]

Rumple,

I apologize for the "offer" remark. I was not refering directly to you when I made that statement. And a first year captain makes 34 dollars an hour.

Bobby,

You are saying that the F/O program is PFT because of a legal technicality. The only reason you get 8 dollars an hour is so you can hold the seat to meet the regs. Otherwise you would not be paid. You are also not represented by the union while in the program. No benefits are given. GIA would be PFT if you could pay the money and stay there forever. You get 250 and thats it. It is an internship. It's the best internship a pilot can do.

 

[bobbysamd]

Legal technicality?

You are saying that the F/O program is PFT because of a legal technicality. The only reason you get 8 dollars an hour is so you can hold the seat to meet the regs. Otherwise you would not be paid. You are also not represented by the union while in the program. No benefits are given. GIA would be PFT if you could pay the money and stay there forever. You get 250 and thats it. It is an internship. It's the best internship a pilot can do.

I agree, not being paid by an employer for work you do is very much a legal technicality. It is against the law for employers not to pay employers for their work.

Receiving your $8/hour, receiving a W-2 that summarizes your income, having federal and state income taxes, Social Security and Medicare withheld from your check every payday (Florida may not withhold state taxes because there is no state income tax in Florida), and being required by law to report said income on your 1040 and whatever state income tax return, is far more than a mere "legal technicality." Each of these items meets every test for "job," for which you paid.

Similarly, Gulfstream, by law, is required to either self-insure or purchase a Workers' Compensation insurance policy to cover job-related injuries, even for (intern) FOs. Once again, this is congruent with the definition of "job" and "employment."

If Gulfstream is not fulfilling these obligations for its FOs, then it is violating the law.

Finally, unless my understanding is incorrect, airline FOs, such as Gulfstream P-F-Ters, are probationary hires and are not eligible for union membership until they complete probation. (Could this be a way for Gulfstream management to limit the size of its unionized pilot group and minimize its payments of union benefits??? Similar sleazy tactics are used in the grocery industry - except that those workers must join the union at hire.)

 

[stuart716]

bobby

readying your quick bio it says that you arent even in this profession. did you ever work for an airline or 135 op? or do instruct on the side? gulfstream is a good program for people trying to get some experience quickly. what about southwest requiring a 737 type before you finish ground school? as far as i know they dont pay you back for it. what about places like mesa pilot development? go to a certain school because they are owned by an airline that has prefernitial hiring of their own students. do you consider that pft?

 

[bobbysamd]

Yes, No, No, and Yes

readying your quick bio it says that you arent even in this profession. did you ever work for an airline or 135 op?

You apparently did not read my profile completely. I instructed at MAPD in 1993. In those days, Mesa Airlines, which owns and operates MAPD, operated many of its flights under 135, so the answer is "yes" to both. I had Mesa pass privileges during that time as well.

what about southwest requiring a 737 type before you finish ground school?

What about it? The SWA 737 type requirement is not P-F-T. You have to bear in mind that plenty of people have been typed in 737s for free, e.g., furloughed United pilots, etc., pilots who flew it in the military, and Boeing BBJ pilots. Southwest has hired a great many of those pilots, who paid not a nickel for their 737 types. Yes, there are those who buy 737 types to qualify at Southwest. None of the above, i.e., the ones who got it for free and the ones who paid, are required to pay Southwest Airlines for their FAA-required initial training. In other words they are not buying the job. The answer is "no."

what about places like mesa pilot development? go to a certain school because they are owned by an airline that has prefernitial hiring of their own students. do you consider that pft?

Let's be completely fair and include Comair (Delta Connection Academy) along with Mesa. The answer in both instances is "no." Both Mesa and Comair are flight schools, only. Both places train new pilots for their initial ratings (Mesa does not train for the CFI). The only promises both schools make is that in exchange for your payment they will train you for said ratings, only. No job promises accrue with either program in exchange for money.

Yes, both schools have a preferential hiring tieup with their parent airlines, and, at least at Mesa, you have to really screw up to screw yourself out of "the interview," but you are not hired as an FO upon completion of your Commercial-Instrument-Multi training in either school.

 

[stuart716]

when i said i read your quick bio it was the thing that said your total time and stuff on the screen i had no interest of looking for someones life story. the mesa pace program is a training program that is geared toward the mesa way of flying with an interview at the end of it. so paying for an interview is different. what about going to mesa and instructing for a year so you can get an interview. are you telling me that people chose to go to mapd because its such a great school and farmington is such a fun place to live? or do you think it had something to do with the interview to fly a crj with only a few hundred hours because you gave them a bunch of money to train them?