Grounds for Pilot termination

[Publishers]

Recently an old question was raised and I seek your counsel.

What does an airline or charter company do when the customer does not want the pilot used again? In this case, the customer is your biggest customer and so the available work for this pilot with other customers you have is limited.

Should, could, or would you fire this individual regardless the reason they do not want him flying for them?

What if it is on race or religious grounds, or he had a problem with some of their employees?

Publishers.

 

[350DRIVER]

Most charter companies can and will remove a crew member from future flights when a pax requests it, not really a big deal at all and it happens quite often. The pilot is not "terminated' in most cases unless safety was compromised and the pax wants to pursue his termination, he is simply just not used for that particular company/pax when they charter future flights out. I have seen this many times for reasons such as attitude, personality conflicts, etc. Much more difficult at the airlines since the above minor conflicts (excluding the safety factor) are not going to get a pilot into trouble, much of a more of a different environment versus your charter flying. The pax can write a letter, complain, etc, but the chances are much less slim that they are going to run into the pilot(s) on future flights as a pax would that regulary charters through a "local company''.


The passengers are paying much more money to charter the airplane and crew out so most all charter companies are going to grant most all pax requests and wishes within reason. If they don't like a pilot then can simply say "I don't want to use that pilot anymore", no justification is needed.

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[DoinTime]

What does an airline or charter company do when the customer does not want the pilot used again? In this case, the customer is your biggest customer and so the available work for this pilot with other customers you have is limited.

Should, could, or would you fire this individual regardless the reason they do not want him flying for them?

Depends on if you are a Union shop or not.

 

[cynic]

So you are asking which is more important, personal integrity or success in business...

 

[Publishers]

understand

I do not understand the integrity or success question. In the example, 80% of the business is with the one customer. It is an ACMI contract and they do not want this pilot coming into their terminal.

The other flying the company does is not a good fit for the individual and they were really put on to do the work at the big customer.

Obviously these are tougher questions in the case of smaller companies.

One critical element from my perspective is that you are not flying your freight or passengers in ACMI type contracts. You are flying the customers people or passengers and so they have every right to say no to a particular crew member if they are not comfortable.

A number of years back, I had a pilot in a 135 who might have been a decent stick and rudder guy but the passengers did not take to him nor he to them. I soon found we were constantly scheduling around the guy for customers who preferred others. Eventually I let him go.

My general feeling is that I may let you go because you do not fly well, but, the customer can let you go because you do not serve well.

That is why I am looking for your opinion.

 

[350DRIVER]

Publishers,

You are the one calling the shots, right? This seems like a no brainer, atleast from my standpoint and experience in this business. If the pax do not like the pilot then you don't use him when the mentioned people/pax are onboard the aircraft, this happens quite often.




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[capt_zman]

Sounds like you have already answered your own question. If the customer doesn't want the pilot and the pilot doesn't fit into the other part of your business, there really isn't any other option for the pilot. Not that difficult of a business decision if 80% of your business is through one customer. Just my .02

 

[AeroBoy]

Ah, the joys (and excitement) of employment at will...

 

[enigma]

If the customer wants a different pilot, they get a different pilot. That's what charter is all about. If I was the pilot, I would expect a chance to gain the customers favor; but if I couldn't do so, I would certainly understand that the charter operator would need to replace me.

I would expect a glowing recommendation from the charter operator, and would also want the termination to be arranged so that I would be eligible for unemployement. If not, I would have to conclude that the customers were not the party with the problem and that the employer was.

Then, I'd go find me a union job. That's what unions are for, protecting me from arbitrary treatment and favoritism.

enigma

 

[bobbysamd]

Employment-at-will

The client may not want to use the pilot, but that does not necessarily mean that he/she is a bad pilot or bad person. Not standing behind the pilot isn't fair to him/her - but whoever said that aviation employers are fair.

Compare it to a flight school. Not every student/instructor pair works, so one or the other (usually the student) asks for a change. It doesn't mean that the instructor cannot teach; it usually means some sort of personality clash.

At-will employment means that the employer or employee can end the employment relationship at any time. No reasons need be given. Usually, it is the employer who ends the relationship. The employee has to be at fault for him/her not to be eligible for unemployment benefits. Examples of fault would include such things as habitual tardiness, not showing up for work, drinking on the job, stealing, or fighting. A client not wanting a particular pilot on a flight is not necessarily cause for termination, especially if he/she has been accepted by other clients.

I second enigma. Years ago, employers stood behind their employees. Not so, anymore.

 

[Publishers]

points

A couple of additonal points.

Usually almost anyone is eligible for unemployment compensation even if they resigned. It become a question if the employer is charged for the individual which changes their future rate. If the employee was as example charged with stealing from the company and fired, he may or may not be eligible but the employer would not be charged with this against his rate./

Enigma's point is that arbitrary and favoritism are the issue. In the case we are looking at, the employer does not have any real problem with the employee so how can those be issues. The employee is rumored to have made some remarks at the customers terminal and that customer has said the individual is not welcome back.

If this was a union shop, how would it be a different situation?

 

[skydiverdriver]

What did you mean when you said it was a race or religious thing?

If you had a union, you would have to show cause to terminate someone. With at will employment, no cause is required. In other words, the union has a contract with you, and you have to follow the contract. It states when and how you can terminate someone, and how they can contest the termination. So, you just can't fire someone because you feel like it, or if someone has a bad day.

What is an ACMI?

 

[mar]

ACMI

Aircraft Crew Maintenance Insurance

Examples of ACMI operators: Atlas, Polar, Gemini operating as another airline flight number (not codeshare).

 

[Publishers]

Union

I do not think that we can call this " you felt like firing someone or you were having a bad day.

Let's say you are flying for FEDEX as a subcontractor. This is all the flying that your company has. FEDEX notifies you that your pilot has for some reason become persona non grata on their premises and they do not want him used.

Union contract or not, this is a significant problem not some whim on anyone connected with your companies part. You were retained to do certain work and no longer can. Do we pay this person to sit? Are they fit for duty when the customer has banned them?

This is not a big deal on companies that have a range of employees and work, but, if this is the one customer you have or reprsents the vast majority of work, you can see the problem.

This is a real world problem.

 

[enigma]

Pub, you must be bored. Why else post this topic?

In general, the DOMINANT pilot union is ALPA. In case anyone doesn't know, ALPA stands for AIRLINE pilots association. In the case of an airline, no single customer holds the power to dictate personel. If you want to talk unions in that light, go for it. Trying to apply ALPA procedures to non-airline situations is apples to oranges.

my connection is acting up, more later.

enigma

 

[enigma]

continued

Pub, you must be bored. Why else post this topic?

In general, the DOMINANT pilot union is ALPA. In case anyone doesn't know, ALPA stands for AIRLINE pilots association. In the case of an airline, no single customer holds the power to dictate personel. If you want to talk unions in that light, go for it. Trying to apply ALPA procedures to non-airline situations is apples to oranges.

my connection is acting up, more later.

enigma

Let's go back to the basics. An employer who employes union pilots is legally bound, by a contract, to treat those pilots according to that contract. Also, remember that the contract was not forced upon the employer; it was duly negotiated and accepted by BOTH parties. The contract will spell out the circumstances under which an employee can be terminated. If the contract allows termination because a customer doesn't like the pilot, so be it. If the contract doesn't allow relief to the employer in that circumstance, the employer will have to find a way to keep the customer happy while continuing to uphold his legally binding contract with his pilot.

In the real world, I expect that the company would fire the pilot regardless of contractual language. Leaving the impetus on the pilot to pursue satisfaction in the matter. Even if the union pursued the matter, the pilot would most likely only gain some monetary settlement, but not regain his job.

Ultimately, no matter how much managers scream about unions, the employer holds the cards.

enigma

 

[skylane58]

I know what Publisher is saying. I knew a guy who was fired from a FedEx feeder because he helped out the guys throwing boxes. Its not right that this happens, but it does. It wasn't the company he worked for that wanted to fire him, it was FedEx.

 

[Publishers]

Enigma

While I know you may find this implausable, there are some that call me as a potential expert witness. As the question is interesting, I thought why not get the opinion of knowlegeable pilots such as yourself.

Obviously in some cases, there are customers that have the weight and power to influence the companies that work for them.

In the specific case, the customer did not like the middle east nature of the pilot and they reportedly made some comments on the customers property that they considered inappropriate. They banned him.

He was terminated and litigation followed. In a company with it's own passengers or freight, he probably gets some dicispline etc. In a charter company, he becomes worthless to the company.

At the phylisophical root of the issues is our all flyng jobs the same.

 

[TonyC]

I knew a guy who was fired from a FedEx feeder because he helped out the guys throwing boxes. ... It wasn't the company he worked for that wanted to fire him, it was FedEx.

Why in the world would FedEx complain about getting free help? That sounds fishy to me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Unemployment benefits aside

Usually almost anyone is eligible for unemployment compensation even if they resigned . . . .

It depends. If the employee was asked to resign, that is tantamount to being fired. As before, the next question is whether the termination was the fault of the employee.

In Colorado, under some circumstances you can resign, but you might not be eligible for a full award of unemployment benefits.

This seems like an appropriate time to again recommend my favorite employment law book, Every Employee's Guide to the Law by Lewin G. Joel II, ISBN: 0375714456, available at your favorite on-line bookseller and elsewhere.