Grinstein's last word on ASA-Comair merger

[surplus1]

WOW, miss a day and there's a plethora of good posts on the issues. I'm jumping in head on but it will take maybe hours to respond to so many. Here goes nothing.

>>I think they were referring to purchasing job security by means of a scope clause that limits all DCI flying to ASA/CMR and current outsourced levels, not underbidding mainline.

I think you're right about that although how practical it will prove to be is a horse of another color. The idea of "underbidding mainline" is a bad one and I don't see it as part of the equation. On the other hand we have to worry far more about mainline underbiddng us, which is quite likely to happen. There's a better than 50/50 chance that its happening as we write.

You're leaning in the right direction. The "group hug love-ins" as you call them are truly meaningless. That is because they are an "external" idea, invented and promoted by the National union as a cover for the conflicts created by its own policies. "WE", that is the group, are expected to resolve the conflicts that the union's policies have generated, by chatting with everyone except the folks that created these bad policies. It has never worked in the past and it isn't going to work now. When the union gets out of the conflict generation business the "love-ins" may be helpful.

furloughed again is right. there are a lot of senior pilots who would gladly suffer eternal stagnation and perhaps even shrinkage (i was in the pool!) just to avoid even a small pay cut. although i disagree with them, i can't blame them, as they are just expressing their interests.

Furloughed Again is only partly correct, but some of what you say is a natural human reaction. There is little real difference between a senior pilot wanting to hang on to his pay and QOL, which might cause stagnation for a while, and a junior pilot demanding pay cuts for growth so that he can "get his PIC time" to go to another airline. A balance between the two interests must be achieved to maintain the unity of our group.

Those of you that are now considering yourselves "junior" should remember that you aren't the first group of junior pilots in this airline's history. The Comair pilot group does have a history and that history includes the fact that the senior have not yet sacrificed the junior to enhance themselves. That's not my opinion, the record is there to prove it. Those of you that are "post strike" might do well to review how "juniors" that preceeded you have been treated. The record on this "property" is as good as any airline and better than most.

Note for instance that your FO pay is 60% of a Captain's pay. Compare that to other regionals that have traditionally shifted the money to the captains side of the fence and paid the FO next to nothing. WE of Comair were among the first, if not THE first, to break that mold. Had we not done so, captains pay could be much higher at the expense of FO pay being significantly lower. The decision to stop that modus operandi, prevalent at "regionals", was initiated by your MEC in 1990, nearly 14 years ago. The point is that it is unfair for you to infer that Comair's senior pilots are willing to sacrifice our junior pilots. That just ain't so.

What I'm trying to say is this --- Don't sell this pilot group short because of crew-room banter and meaningless rhetoric. Instead of emphasizing that you are "new" and different, try to recognize who we are, who we were before you got here, and learn our culture. YOU are a part of it, i.e., a Comair pilot. YOU are one of US and the overwhelming majority of our senior pilots know that well. Don't sell them short. Our strength is in our unity and nobody knows that better than a "senior" Comair pilot. WE, the seniors, will stand together with YOU the juniors, just as we did before. ALL of us were "junior" at one time. This is not a fly-by-night or come-lately pilot group. I say again, we have a history and a culture, learn it and be a part of it. We're all Comair pilots and we don't leave our own behind.

These are difficult times and they will get more difficult before they get better. We can't help each other by doubting the intentions of each other. Try to put it in perspective and don't let fear of the unknown cloud your thinking. The truth is that a junior pilots' fear that the seniors will forget him is no different than a senior pilots' fear that the junior pilot may not stand tall when the chips are down. Reality is that our success or failure as a group depends on our standing together as we face the challenges ahead. It's not the best way, it's the only way.

Furloughed Again is intelligent and experienced, but the truth is he comes to us with the baggage of his previous group as well as his experience. I don't say that as a criticism at all, it is just the truth. As a former USAirways pilot he's accustomed to a disunited pilot group with a dysfunctional MEC that literally needs a roll call vote to determine when it will break for lunch or who will sit where at the table. Well, he's a Comair pilot now and that's NOT how we do things. That baggage needs to be left where it came from (USAirways). We can all benefit from his experience and wisdom about issues, but we can't benefit from a thought process of what happened at USAirways. We have never operated like they do and, in my opinion, we don't need to start.

P38 you are NOT accurate in thinking that seniors don't place a high value on job security. We do. How to achieve it in the convoluted corporate structures that surround us is not quite as easy as some of you seem to think. Let me put it this way: It's a he11 of a lot easier for the Delta pilots to write a scope clause than it is for us.

When they reach a contractual agreement they reach it with Delta Air Lines only. We on the other hand are forced, by our own union, to bargain with Comair Airlines, which is owned by Comair Holdings, which is controlled by Delta Connection, Inc., which is owned by Delta Air Lines, which operates two other airline subsidiaries and subcontracts with an additional three regional airlines and code-shares with a fourth. I'm not saying that the problem is unsolveable for it isn't; however it is much harder than the same problem is for the Delta pilots. They only have to deal with ONE corporation.

You may not realize it but the fact is that when we write a "Scope clause" it would have to be signed by no less than FOUR different corporate entities before it would be fully enforceable. Unless we are allowed, by our union, to negotiate with the one legal entity that controls it all, i.e., Delta Air Lines, it's an uphill battle of monumental porportions.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone. I know as much as anyone in this airline how important job security really is. I also understand how difficult it is to achieve at the bargaining table.

I can guarantee you and Furloughed Again that the reason we do not have adequate job security provisions in our current contract is NOT because senior pilots "sold out" junior pilots and it is NOT because the senior pilots feel secure and don't care about the juniors. The fact is I could write a hundred-page book on that subject alone. I've been here long enough and I know the history. I know also that when I first came here there were less than 300 pilots in all of Comair and 299 of them thought that "Scope" was a mouth wash.

I can also tell you with certainty that one of the principle reasons we do not have adequate job security provisions in our CBA is our own union. Not your MEC, but the National ALPA. Like it or not, the fact is that any security we obtain for ourselves, conflicts with the security of the Delta pilots. When ALPA chooses who it wants most to "protect", airlines like Comair don't come out the winner.

The fact is that ALPA has never supported a scope clause that directly protects the flying of any regional airline that belongs to ALPA. How can ALPA support a scope clause that protects Comair pilots' flying while ALPA is simultaneously supporting the belief and the scope clause that says that ALL Comair flying, ASA flying, ACA flying (for DCI), SkyWest flying (for DCI) and now CHQ flying (for DCI) belongs to the Delta pilots? The answer is they can't and they don't, and they never have!

So, before you question the intentions of our own senior pilots with respect to your welfare, I recommend you make youself aware of the true obstacles to the job security of Comair pilots. It is not the senior pilots that you have to convince, it is four corporate entities and one labor union.

that doesn't mean pay cuts just to please our fake puppet managers. in fact, we are all united against that from top to bottom. but negotiating for real scope and job protections is something we should be persuing.

One last time. Your local union leadership, the CMR MEC, has been persuing job security for Comair's pilots for no less than 14 years. The question you should be asking is what has your National Union been doing? If you don't know the answer I'll volunteer it; everything it can to prevent it. There is no "full pay til the last day cause I got mine" mentality among senior Comair pilots. That is a creation of your imagination fostered by a lack of adequate information. We don't need that as a group. Not from a "senior" pilot and not from a "junior" pilot. Not from ANY Comair pilot.

Do understand please that this is not a personal attack on you or anyone else. It IS an attack on misinformation and innacurate presumptions. There is nothing more important to me personally than the unity of Comair pilots and I'll fight for that every time. Sometimes a great deal of candor is simply required in the effort to advance that cause.

Sincerely,
Surplus 1

 

[surplus1]

We are in an interesting and dynamic situation. We cannot negotiate with our company, but rather are forced to negotiate with what equates to middle-managers who make no real decisions on our future as a company.

You're getting close to the real problem. Now thing about WHY we have that problem and who makes it so.

Add that to the competition we're getting from our own union and you've got yourself a 50-page thesis.

You're on the right frequency. I promise it would take a lot more than 50 pages to write the whole story.

My point is our negotiations should be aimed at preventing such a situation. Firstly we need to make it cost prohibitive for Delta to remove aircraft from Comair.

Sounds good. How do you propose we go about doing that? I hope you're not suggesting that we join the lowest bidder syndrome. What are your ideas?

Second we need to achieve scope and stop the whipsaw all while at least maintaining the current rates. Realistic goals, I'd say.

See my previous post to P38. The goals are not unrealistic. Your ideas on how they might be achieved would be welcome.

By that I mean negotiate not only minimum staffing levels at Comair, but also at Comair and ASA combined.

The Comair CBA already contains the equivalent of a staffing forumula that some think (including me) is more progressive than most. Under the current corporate structure, Comair pilots can't negotiate a stiffing formula or anything else for ASA. What happens if the ASA pilots don't like the Comair formulae?

If they won't let us negotiate with Delta, force Randy to.

How would you propose to do that? Remember, and 89-day strike, which was really against Delta and not Comair, didn't exactly force Delta to roll over. When you only do 10-12% of the overall flying, give me some ideas on where you will get the power to move Delta where it doesn't want to be moved?

I don't like it either but the fact is the "portfolio concept" is not an economics based decision it is an anti-labor decision. Truth is we have less leverage today than we had when the strike was in progress.

If that strike had been against Comair, you can bet it would not have lasted anywhere near 89-days, and we would now have the job security protection that we all want. Unfortunately, Comair management, with a whole lot of clandestine help from DC, was able to stall until the acquisition was complete. That changed it from a strike against CMR to a strike against DAL, which was NOT supported by the rest of Delta's pilot force.

There are ways to prevent management (Delta) from legally stabbing us in the back, but its going to take some thinking outside the box. We can't continue to fire in British lines when management is using Guerrilla(sp?) tactics.

I'm not on the MEC nor do I have any insider connection to it, but I sure like to see an outline of the "ways" that you believe we can use and the outside of the box thinking that you espouse. There's nothing quite like an armchair general conducting a war, but I'd still appreciate hearing some of your ideas.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Come on now---don't get soooo paranoid. Look at your position in the whole corporation. Your company (Comair) is a subsidiary (just like Mainline)---but used to primarily feed mainline. You guys will always play second fiddle--and that is just the way it is. After we give our concessions--we will get something in return--and that is because we are going first. Now your MECs are starting to figure out that it is better to negotiate than to watch everything go by without having some say. You are right--ALPA is trying to orchestrate this---but Mainline is the primary target--and thus we get first dibbs on the left overs. We also have suffered more than you guys have (in terms of numbers and downgrades)--and we deserve to get some of that back--even at a lower wage.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Surplus,

While I appreciate your sentiments they do not appear to reflect the crew-room banter or the general opinion of the captains with whom I fly.

I continue to hope that you'll prove correct. I have my doubts but, as you inferred, that is my baggage and I'll deal with it as best I can.

As far as scope, I believe you're right. I do not believe that scope can be achieved through the collective bargaining process. So as a union we have to sit down and have a discussion regarding job security. Are there any provisions that would be enforceable? Are there any that would not be impacted by force majeur? And, most importantly, what negotiating capital are we willing to part with in order to obtain such protections?

I'm not an expert in aviation labor law -- to be honest up until very recently I still thought the best avenue to pursue was percentage of total DCI block-hours.

The trick was, and still is, getting Delta to the table.

Ok, so lets say that General Lee is right and that is an impossibility and we are relegated to "left-over bargaining".

That is what led me to think of what else is required in order to keep pilots on staff? If block-hours to be flown is #1...then certainly hulls is a close 2nd. As long as there are airplanes to fly, then the company needs pilots. That got me to thinking about the LPPs.

There is nothing to stop the pilot group from negotiating labor protective provisions with Comair Inc.

The language: "In addition to all other protections under this pilot agreement, if, within any 12 month period while the agreement remains in effect, Comair transfers or disposes of assets which, net of asset purchases or acquisitions during the same 12 month period, constitute 15% or more the value of the assets of the company (the closing of any such transactions being referred to as a "triggering event"), then:

The association shall determine, in its sole discretion, whether or not pilots from the Comair system seniority list shall transfer to the transferee and which pilots shall transfer.

The company shall require any transferee to employee the transferring pilots, with the integration of the transferring pilots into the transferee's seniority list to be governed by the association merger policy as oer sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny/Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions."

In laymans terms? If the company sells or transfers in excess of 15% of the assets (12 airplanes or thereabouts) the pilots go with the planes.

We've got to think outside of the box. If we can negotiate LPPs or something similar -- and if we can afford the negotiating capital required to do so, even if some pilots perceive this to be "concessionary" then I believe that the association has a responsibility to try.

Just my opinion, laced with a little baggage.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,


I don't mean to get in between you guys (Oh wait, sure I do), but I don't think any of us over here mind if you and ASA get the lion's share of DCI hours (it really isn't up to us)---but we just want to get our 1000 furloughs back into airplanes--and that looks like it could be done with future 100 seaters. As far as 70 seaters---as long as there isn't a long wait for our furloughs to get back into the cockpit (something you understand)---they may not even be a large issue --unless they are the only planes ordered. We have to get our guys back into the cockpit---I think you can understand that.

I hope you guys do negotiate something with Delta--and I hope you get your scope. Job security would be great at both Delta and DCI.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flash 7]

Question for GL

Hey GL,

Does the current mass exodus of senior pilots create enough room for all the recalls during the next 24 months to go back to current mainline aircraft?

 

[surplus1]

I might also add that I will not send any money to a group that is suing the association in order to (it appears) force a merger between Comair and Delta.

You were right, here's comes Surplus. Where you send your money is up to you, but by now you've been here long enough to figure out that the RJDC is not trying to force any merger between Comair and Delta. In fact it never was. You, of all people, are definitely smart enough to figure that out. That makes me wonder why you would say that. If I didn't know better I would accuse you of Deltitis.

ALPA merger policy, if it were instituted, currently merges seniority lists based on two things: career expectations, and no-windfalls.

Come on now, you know better than that. That's the propaganda line, which has virtually nothing to do with how mergers eventually turn out. You know well that the UAL pilots thought the AAA pilots should be "stapled" when those two companies were talking merger. At that point in time I clearly remember the AAA pilots claiming potential seats in the 747s, which could hardly be called a career expectation of AAA pilots or anything less than a windfall. So lets call a spade a spade. Do you really think the United MEC was going to be dictated to by ALPA merger policy? If so, you don't know ALPA.

ALPA "merger policy" is as much a charade as a good portion of the rest of ALPA's "policies". For starters its alter ego policy. Why do you think the Delta pilots objected tooth and nail to the possible implementation of "merger policy"? I'll tell you why, It was because they in fact do not accept "merger policy". What they want is what must be assured them, and they were not about to even consider the possibility of dealing with any arbitrator. The very merger policy, changes to which were sponsored by the DMEC in 1998, was one that they themselves would not "gamble" on accepting. That's not what I say, it is what they have said, repeatedly and it what they backed up with their power in ALPA.

I'm not arguing for them or against them. I'm just trying to make the point that ALPA merger policy is now and has always been an unenforceable farce. What happens in a merger will depend on the merger committee negotiations, and the power of the most powerful MEC, period. The rest is a bunch of rhetoric.

I believe "career expectations" would relegate the vast majority (if not all) of the Comair seniority list to a staple -- which is understandable. But without a decade-long fence agreement it seems that a merger would create an excess of pilots and, quite possibly, the furlough of the thousand juniormost Comair pilots.

I agree with you, a "staple" with Comair would have resulted in the furlough of almost all Comair pilots. If it happened tomorrow, all the people that eagerly wish for a number on the Delta list, would instead be unemployed. Sometimes it is wise to be careful what you ask for, you might get it. If you haven't guessed, I'm not a proponent of a merger with Delta/Comair.

While the disparity between the two airlines is so great as to likely result in a staple or near staple, the only way a massive "flush" could be avoided is to stipulate that you can't displace. If you want to change where you fly (as in regional vs mainline aircraft), you bid for it. If no Delta pilot bids a Delta vacancy a Comair pilot can fill it. If no Comair pilot bids a CMR vacancy a Delta pilot can bid it. That way there is "no windfall" for either side and we don't become furlough fodder for Delta pilots. Variations negotiable.

When you are comparing an 1800 pilot airline with a 10,000 pilot airline, you have to consider that a mere 15% reduction at the big airline literally wipes out your seniority list. If Comair pilots don't see that, they'd better take a second look. All that glitters is not gold.

Its not too different with the highly touted ASA/CMR merger. The mere act of merging may save money for the Company but it does nothing for either ASA or CMR pilots, except guarantee that almost everyone will lose some seniority. It certainly, alone, does nothing to prevent whipsaw with all the other DCI carriers or the mainline. So where is the big benefit for the pilots? Who benefits most = the most senior types, but what's better about being #3600 on a 3600 pilot list as opposed to #1800 on and 1800 pilot list? Look at the math. A 10% RIF furloughs 360 as opposed to 180. Where will YOU (anybody) fall in that equation? Frankly, if this merger comes without something else that benefits the pilots, I don't see it as an advantage. Maybe for No. 1, but he's already at the top.

I'm not sending money to an organization to fight for my own furlough.

Again, don't send money anywhere you're not comfortable but if you're talking about the RJDC you might want to give some thought to the idea that right now it's probably the only thing that's keeping us from being overrun by Delta pilots, which means furloughed again.

Maybe I have their goals all wrong. I'm sure that if I do Surplus will show up and tell me what their actual goals are. Until then I still firmly believe that a unified pilot group with the goal of job security can negotiate reasonable protections.

I'm not a spokesman for the RJDC and I have no role in running it, but I do support its efforts. If you really think that the "goal" of the RJDC has anything to do with forcing a merger with Delta, about all I can say is that when your ship came in, you were at the airport.

The primary goal of the RJDC is job security. For the smart guy you are, I candidly don't understand how you've managed to miss that so completely. The only thing I can guess is that you have failed to identify all of the real threats to your job security, foremost among which are ALPA and the Delta MEC. Wait 'till you see what comes out of their current round of concessionary bargaining. You may well discover that your job is one of the conessions they bargained away so that they could become your indirect replacement.

What do you think will happen to your job security if the Delta pilots succeed in transferring the 70-seaters to the mainline? Do you think they will offer you a number on their list? What will happen to your chances of promotion when they negotiate a J4J program that puts them into the left seats of Comair airplanes and ALPA tells you "take it or leave it"? What will happen to your compensation package when they under bid our current contract by $30 hour to "get the flying", like your former airline did?

Those are the things that RJDC is trying to prevent YOUR union and MY union from doing to OUR pilots so that Delta pilots can get what THEY want at OUR expense.

Smell the coffee man, you're not an amateur. Don't drink the kool aid. This is a war for survival and it is you and I, junior and senior alike that are at risk. I don't want you to spend a nickle paying for your own furlough, but if you were smart you might consider it may be worth a $1 or $2 to protect your job and your seniority. It has a lot better chance of bearing fruit that negotiating a new "scope clause".

Between the AAA rates for the E-170 and the JBlue rates for the E-190, we're in for one he11 of a ride. If you don't think the D pilots will try to match those rates to get the flying, think again. What we have at CMR may not be much, but it's worth fighting for. Unless you want to underbid Mesa to keep your flying and your job, you'd better prepare to defend it and face the reality that there are a great many in both ATL and Herdon that would take it away without batting an eye. They've been trying and they are still trying.

The only thing the RJDC is trying to do is prevent that by forcing our Union to represent the interersts that you and I and every other Comair pilot PAY them to represent, every month.

Respectfully,
Surplus1

 

[General Lee]

Flash7,


The large exodus has helped tremendously---but according to the Council 66 Chairman---the recalls were crafted to adhere to the recall schedule thanks to the early retirements, current pilot shortage, and FUTURE expansion created by a more profitable Delta after concessions. That recall rate is between 30 and 45 a month thru 2006. I don't think all 1020 would come back now from the current set of retirements--but more retirements due to large pay cuts would bring back even more. The deal was to try to get them all back by AUG of 2006. Dalpa didn't try to ram this down Delta's throat---they tried to make it feasible--by spreading it out. Obviously a new aircraft order (like new EMB-190s etc...) could bring them back faster, but a large increase in the cap would delay their return. If that is the case---look for Dalpa to try to negotiate something to bring them back in some other way--maybe a J4J type deal etc....I don't really know, but I would expect them to get our furloughs back into A COCKPIT as soon as they could.


Surplus1,

You are believing that a "staple" would result in huge DCI furloughs---and I would think there would be a fence made. I doubt any current DCI pilots would be affected---other than stagnation---which is better than a 100% pay cut via a furlough. I do not know if any of this would happen---since I am not at the negotiating table......But Dalpa has GOT TO BE looking at saving jobs some how.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

The trick was, and still is, getting Delta to the table.

f

That is only one of the tricks, the other is getting our official "bargaining agent" to allow that. The former may prove far easier than the latter.

That got me to thinking about the LPPs.

There is nothing to stop the pilot group from negotiating labor protective provisions with Comair Inc.

In laymans terms? If the company sells or transfers in excess of 15% of the assets (12 airplanes or thereabouts) the pilots go with the planes.

We've got to think outside of the box. If we can negotiate LPPs or something similar -- and if we can afford the negotiating capital required to do so, even if some pilots perceive this to be "concessionary" then I believe that the association has a responsibility to try.

Just my opinion, laced with a little baggage.

Your opinion is welcome and just as valid as mine. I have no problem with "thinking ouside the box" and I am no stranger to Allegheny/Mohawk and the LPPs, inculding that they never really happened as intended even in the Allegheny/Mohawk merger that gave them birth.

I agree that our MEC has a rsponsibility to try. As for the Association, it's responsibilities do not appear to include representation of the interests of Comair pilots. If they did, there would be no litigation.

Appart from that, what bothers me as much as anything is that you seem to believe that our past negotiations did not include LPPs, did not include possible fragmentation, did not include alter egos, or any of the other fears you articulate. The fact is that ALL of those things were "on the table" both before Comair's acquisition by Delta and subsequently thereto. You seem to think that our negotiators did not seek to secure protection of our jobs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Our negotiators fought both the Company and in some cases our very own ALPA provided attorneys in a relentless effort to secure our jobs. There was all kinds of "out of the box" thinking on nearly every option. Not one or twice but months on end. Ultimately the Company simply would not sign on the dotted line.

I don't know how many negotiations you've been in, but if it is even one, you should know that you can't force the other side to do anything. That's why contracts are called "agreements". Just how easy do you think it is to get an agreement when the Company knows that your own union does NOT support your position? Recognize if you will that this Company, Delta, took a 700-million dollar hit over 90 days when, had it given your negotiators everything they wanted it would have cost little more than 50 million dollars over 5 years.

Our negotiators did not "get" the protections you want, and I want, because the Company flatly refused to give them. They were literally prepared to close the Company and go out of businness, notwithstanding that they had paid 1.9 billion dollars to buy it only a few months before.

There is everything right about what you want. It is reasonble and it is justified. It's not about money, it's about power and ego. Your negotiators didn't get it because it was not there to be had. Not because they didn't try. Delta is too big to be forced to do anything by 1800 pilots. That is reality. We can shut down Comair and we did. We can't shut down Delta on our own and when it comes to this issue, believe me; we are on our own. The story of David and Goliath is a myth.

Maybe the MEC should have allowed the Company to destroy the airline. Some have that opinion. None of us know if they would really have done that. One thing is certain, none of us would be here discussing our job security if they had.

That does NOT mean the effort should be abandoned. It should not. We have to keep trying until we get where we need to be, no matter how long it takes. I'm all for that and I'm for new ideas from any pilot, junior or senior. If we stick together and keep the faith, one day (the sooner the better) the mountain will come to Mohammed.

Regards,

 

[bvt1151]

I'm not on the MEC nor do I have any insider connection to it, but I sure like to see an outline of the "ways" that you believe we can use and the outside of the box thinking that you espouse. There's nothing quite like an armchair general conducting a war, but I'd still appreciate hearing some of your ideas.

I don't want to portay an image of an armchair quarterback, nor of anyone who thinks they know more about the situation than the folks at the top. Read my post about giving them the benefit of the doubt. That being said, the details are beyond me. I'm not privy to the inside negotiations within the MEC, nor do I claim to be. I'm not even proposing anything, merely thinking out loud. Tends to lend to the brainstorming process.

I like my British firing line analogy, now that I think about it more. Our tactics are antiquated for the new era of contract carriers and whipsaw techniques by managment. We're being attacked by Delta but we're only allowed to fight back against Comair. If Delta won't allow us to negotiate directly with them, its time to think of ways to force them to. I'm sure there are ways of putting pressure on Randy to accomplish some own deals with Delta in our favor. Its a two-tier type of negotiations and it'll take some higher thought as to ways of implementing it. We're being fired at long-range by Delta, yet we can only reach Comair to retaliate. There is a way to negotiate through Comair. We just have to figure out how. That's up to the offials elected to make those decisions.

 

[wms]

I don't know about CA, but the ASA contract provides furlough protection in the event of a buyout or merger.

 

[surplus1]

I like my British firing line analogy, now that I think about it more. Our tactics are antiquated for the new era of contract carriers and whipsaw techniques by managment. We're being attacked by Delta but we're only allowed to fight back against Comair. If Delta won't allow us to negotiate directly with them, its time to think of ways to force them to. I'm sure there are ways of putting pressure on Randy to accomplish some own deals with Delta in our favor. Its a two-tier type of negotiations and it'll take some higher thought as to ways of implementing it. We're being fired at long-range by Delta, yet we can only reach Comair to retaliate. There is a way to negotiate through Comair. We just have to figure out how. That's up to the offials elected to make those decisions.

There's merit in that and lots of it. You do seem to be missing two very important points however: 1) We aren't a contract carrier, we're a subsidiary, and 2) It is not Delta that won't allow us to negotiate directly with them. Delta has said, in writing, that they will negotiate with whomever ALPA sends to the table. It is the President of ALPA, again in writing, who refused to allow us to negotiate directly with Delta. The exchanged letters are not secret, they are readily available for your review.

I doubt seriously that the ALPA President feels bad about it and will change his mind, especially if the DMEC tells him not to do so. Like everyone else he marches to a drum and Comair pilots don't own the drumsticks. ALPA is already facing severe reductions in its cash flow resulting from the AAA bankruptcy, the UAL bankruptcy and other concessionary hits. Concessions to come at Delta will not improve that. Defiance of the DMEC by the ALPA President could result in the eventual departure of Delta a la APA. That would force ALPA to move from the Hyatt Regency to bookings with Motel 6. If all that has to be sacrificed is CMR and ASA, don't hold your breath waiting for a decision in our favor.

Perhaps you believe the DMEC would not do that. I believe that both ALPA and the DMEC will not allow us to get near Delta management until the Delta pilots have already closed their deal. What the DMEC may want (with respect to us) in that "deal" is not know to us but you can bet as much as you chose, they have already decided. All they have left to do is convince the Company. They have something the Company wants,i.e. 1 billion dollars. That's a tidy sum. "Conferences" between our MECs will result in our being told whatever they choose to tell us. We can believe it or not as we see fit but you can bet again they will tell us what they want us to hear and no more. When they ink the deal, you may wake up to find that all the CR7s are now siting at Delta and flown by Delta pilots that our instructors will train until their own are qualified. We will then be facing the potential furlough of 200 and a lot of lost compensation before we get our turn in the barrel. At that point they'll just tell us "that's the way it is" and ALPA will be serving champagne to the chosen few in its Herndon celebration. That's how our "union" works; "fair and balanced" like FOX News.

It was no accident that we did not get a release fron the NMB until after the Delta pilots had signed on the last go around. ALPA will of course deny any complicity and it will be "plausible" as all political denials are, but whose "influence" do you think made certain that would not happen? (No, it wasn't the DMEC and it wasn't the Company). Oh sorry, there was no "influence", I just suffer from the paranoia of frustration and the pain of reality; a bitter lifer that couldn't make it to the majors.

Last time we had a major negotiation it was with Delta, through Comair. That led to a major strike; counterproductive for both.

Randy has a lot to say about our day-to-day operations. Other than that, he really has nothing to say about the "big picture" at Delta. That's above his pay grade. They may listen out of courtesy, but his recommendations are not about to establish Delta's labor relations policies. If your were here during the strike you may recall that when things got nasty it wasn't Randy of even Siebenburgen that appeared to "meet the press". It was Fred Reid, President of Delta. When bargaining, a middle man serves no purpose other than to increase the cost of the deal. Since we will be doing the "paying" whenever this begins it can't hurt to lower the costs by going directly to the person with the decision making power. It is virtually impossible to close a deal when the person with the power to do so is not at the table. There are lots of new faces at Delta in places that affect us both directly and indirectly. Maybe they are different but that is left to be seen.

I'm not second guessing our MEC (yet), but since we aren't going to be permitted to do anything until after Delta closes with its pilots, we might as well cool our heels and not make any overtures that we have not been asked to make. We are not in Section 6 and that is still many months away. If anything has to be done right now, which it doesn't, an extension of the current CBA might be one of many options included in our "out of the box" thinking.

If we open our contract at the wrong time, we might well lose more than our shirts. It's pretty certain that if 7500 pilots are not in a position to force the Company into anything, and they aren't, the probability that 1800 pilots could is virtually nil. Don't forget where the APA put its tail when faced with the real prospect of bankruptcy. "This tail (CMR) ain't gonna wag that doq (Delta) anytime soon." -- To quote our former CEO from the pre-slavery era.

As you may have noticed I'm an idealist, but even the most overt idealist needs a healthy dose of pragmatism every now and then to make it through life. Keep in mind survival is an instinct; necessity the mother of invention.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Flash7,


The large exodus has helped tremendously---but according to the Council 66 Chairman---the recalls were crafted to adhere to the recall schedule thanks to the early retirements, current pilot shortage, and FUTURE expansion created by a more profitable Delta after concessions. That recall rate is between 30 and 45 a month thru 2006. I don't think all 1020 would come back now from the current set of retirements--but more retirements due to large pay cuts would bring back even more. The deal was to try to get them all back by AUG of 2006. Dalpa didn't try to ram this down Delta's throat---they tried to make it feasible--by spreading it out. Obviously a new aircraft order (like new EMB-190s etc...) could bring them back faster, but a large increase in the cap would delay their return. If that is the case---look for Dalpa to try to negotiate something to bring them back in some other way--maybe a J4J type deal etc....I don't really know, but I would expect them to get our furloughs back into A COCKPIT as soon as they could.


Surplus1,

You are believing that a "staple" would result in huge DCI furloughs---and I would think there would be a fence made. I doubt any current DCI pilots would be affected---other than stagnation---which is better than a 100% pay cut via a furlough. I do not know if any of this would happen---since I am not at the negotiating table......But Dalpa has GOT TO BE looking at saving jobs some how.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Have you given any thought to the possibility of more furloughs because of the increase in productivity which would result from relaxed work rules?

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,


Yes, we have looked at that. So far, the Dalpa leadership have stated that they will not allow that. We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N813CA]

Just remember, I was at Piedmont. We took a big pay cut, and now a lot of my friends have had a HUGE pay cut for 2 years and they are still going to be shut down. WAS THAT WORTH IT? The airplanes are going to go were they need to be. When Comair made more than JET BLUE, SOUTHWEST, AND AIRTRAN in one quarter last year combined. Delta isn't going to get rid of that.

 

[P38JLightning]

job protections

>>>>While the disparity between the two airlines is so great as to likely result in a staple or near staple, the only way a massive "flush" could be avoided is to stipulate that you can't displace. If you want to change where you fly (as in regional vs mainline aircraft), you bid for it. If no Delta pilot bids a Delta vacancy a Comair pilot can fill it. If no Comair pilot bids a CMR vacancy a Delta pilot can bid it. That way there is "no windfall" for either side and we don't become furlough fodder for Delta pilots.

Amen, Surplus.

But good luck getting the RJDC and most of its supporters to go along with that. I agree with you that you can't simply go by "something you heard someone say in the crew room", etc, but Furloughed Again and I aren't the only ones who notice a very vocal and consistent message from obvious RJDC supporters, both in the crew room and in the cockpit. It is a consistent, unified message:

NOTHING short of something greater than a staple is going to be acceptable. DOH is the preferred, and is sincerely thought to be deserved by many, but whatever happens MUST include something greater than a staple. Something that is never going to happen, nor should ever happen. We DO deserve, and should fight for, DOH for furlough protection and/or the no displacement fence as you've described, but this is not enough for most (though not all) RJDC supporters.

But just like the Deltoids freaked out about the PID because they might have lost some seniority and 71+ seat bidding opportunities, our side of the fence equally freaked out (as they do to this day) about not having at least the chance to get greater than a staple. The RJDC puts out pages and pages of "updates" both online and in print in the Comair/ASA crew rooms. How hard would it be for them to suggest a realistic proposal as you've described? They constantly trash ALPA and its specific policies, yet have never proposed a specific solution. It would be really hard to get a windfall of any kind if it precluded them from ever getting something greater than a staple by admitting up front it was out of the picture. Rest assured, the RJDC and its supporters will gladly burn the house down on this one issue alone. Either they will have an arbitrator decide if they get DOH or Staple+ seniority for the purpose of bidding 71+ seat equipment or there will be no deal. You can count on that.

>>>>>Its not too different with the highly touted ASA/CMR merger. The mere act of merging may save money for the Company but it does nothing for either ASA or CMR pilots, except guarantee that almost everyone will lose some seniority. It certainly, alone, does nothing to prevent whipsaw with all the other DCI carriers or the mainline. So where is the big benefit for the pilots? Who benefits most = the most senior types, but what's better about being #3600 on a 3600 pilot list as opposed to #1800 on and 1800 pilot list? Look at the math. A 10% RIF furloughs 360 as opposed to 180. Where will YOU (anybody) fall in that equation? Frankly, if this merger comes without something else that benefits the pilots, I don't see it as an advantage.

You're too smart for "fuzzy math" like that surplus. There is no way Delta (or DCI) is going to say "OK, we need to furlough 10% of SOMEONE, but it doesn't matter who or how much, as long as its 10%." If they furlough 10% of a combined ASA/Comair (about 400 pilots), than they would either furlough 200 of each if we're seperate, or 400 of one or the other. I absolutely object to the notion that Comair pilots are in any way better off by staying seperate from ASA.

There is currently a full court press propaganda drive going on trying to convince junior (especially pre-upgrade) Comair pilots about how they will be screwed by a merger with ASA because they will "lose seniority". What good is being number 1800, 1500 or 100 on our list with more and more whipsawing going on and everyone underbidding one another for growth (and soon for status quo) with none of us having any real job protections and us being (every day by an increasing margin) the highest paid and most stubborn (in the eyes of managament) of the entire portfolio?

Our MEC's have made combined seniority lists in the past and the movement on the list between the pilot groups was 1-2% either way for 99% of the pilots on both lists. Sure Comair has hired more recently, but ASA will hire more than us for the next few years. Of course Comair is hiring plenty right now, replacing the droves of junior FO's that are leaving for SWA, JBLU, etc. We couldn't take the risk of matching ASA's meaningless 6 furloughed Delta pilots because of the whopping training bill that would represent 5 or more years down the road when they got recalled, but losing 5-10 junior FO's a month (11 last month alone) is no big deal. Interesting.

Now we have given DALPA a case hard wedge to drive between the Comair and ASA pilot groups in the future. When Delta does start hiring again (and they will) the ASA pilots will suddenly be glad they are "seperate" from Comair. Duane and his anti-regional conspirators in Herndon couldn't have crafted a better anti-Comair scheme if they tried than pitting us against our closest (and arguably only) industry ally in the future.

At least we prevented those 6 "double voting rights" people who would have swung our elections. Nevermind that we have at least that many Delta interns, with guaranteed Delta interviews, who were already (for all intents and purposes) hired at Delta before they got their first hour. Who'se issues do you think they care about, Comair's or Delta's? And the 50-100 junior FO's a year we are losing who came to Comair not even to build time (which at least takes a few years), but to simply get current or to get a temp gig while their number in someone else's pool gets called. That's no big deal either, as long as they aren't PFE's we'll let it go, because we have more important things to concentrate on, like staple+ at Delta, or bringing down the walls of scope and bidding on 71+ seat equipment so we can get a raise. Right, a raise. They won't possibly go to Chautauqua or SkyWest, cause we are Delta's golden goose, right?

What's even more interesting is ALPA and the RJDC's shared opinion that we shouldn't even get around to fixing these issues for years and years. ALPA is pimping its "brand scope" solution, which in principle is easy to agree with. But according to them will take multipile bargaining sessions at each carrier to gradually phase in. Hmmmm. Each "session" takes about a decade, so....
And the RJDC wants us to believe joining with ASA is fruitless because it doesn't solve all our problems. So its better to sit on the sideline, rely completely on its litigation to solve everything (which, even IF sucessful will take at least a decade or two, including appeals, etc).

Look, I realize the enormus challenges we face if we are ever going to get to where we want to be. But we have to get started now, and we have to be prepared to negotiate and sacrifice to get it. If we don't, we'll have plenty of sacfirices forced upon us. You make a good point about mainline (d.b.a. "Midatlantic") and Jet Blue driving the cost of our labor down more than the PFG and PFU (pay for growth and pay for upgrade) regionals, but that's only because they were the most recent. Give SkyWest and Chautauqua the next turn in the barell and see how fast they underbid them. They will do anything for growth and rapid upgrades. And that will be a direct threat to us with management's ability to "award growth" and "realign" flying and assets to whomever they please.

IMO we will need the Delta pilot's help, as they control the scope right now. Fight it in court all you want, but explain how any court judgement is going to have any teeth whatsoever 10 years from now, when there are 15 DCI portfolio carriers, SkyWest and Chautauqua have two thirds of the newly unlimited 70 and 90 seaters and Comair's labor costs are double or tripple anyone else's costs on equipment twice the size.

Of course we don't want to work with the Delta pilots any more than they want to work with us. They are still harping on our attempted "seniority grab" and we're still livid ALPA didn't let an arbitrator possibly grant us access to their seniority list. One thing is for sure; the way things are going we'll get to enjoy the status quo for a while. What happens then will just have to be someone else's problem.