Great Lakes Hiring Run Finally Ends...Newhires Sent Home

[ratherbeflyen]

Why do places always hire right up until they furlough?

I think crew planning should officially be changed to crew guessing. None of them ever seem to have any idea how many pilots they need.

 

[DUATS]

Seriously, I wonder what all you candya$$es would do back when the airlines flew primarily airmail and pilots had to sleep under the wings and repair their own wings with the shirt on their back.

I remember that movie! Jimmy Stewart playing Chuck Lindbergh, right?

 

[Trogdor]

afraid or just don't have enough time?

Afraid. The training department at GLA, term used very loosely, makes upgrade notoriously difficult.

 

[flythere]

Afraid. The training department at GLA, term used very loosely, makes upgrade notoriously difficult.

You've got it all wrong! It's not a training department, it's a check-ride department. Capt upgrade was more or less a self study course. If I can remember right ground school lasted approx 6 days, including the final exam, with 4 sims and a check-ride! Was like standing under Niagra-Falls trying to take a drink!!

 

[Browntothebone]

What's the QOL like?

 

[Crossky]

Nope, only N Amerika flying for me so far . . .

 

[Andy Neill]

I remember that movie! Jimmy Stewart playing Chuck Lindbergh, right?

Yeah...and it was really said when he crashed with his buddy Wiley Post while looking for Amelia Wright.

 

[Metro752]

I thought Jimmy Stewart played Chuck Colgan Sr. ?

 

[Minimaniac]

You've got it all wrong! It's not a training department, it's a check-ride department. Capt upgrade was more or less a self study course. If I can remember right ground school lasted approx 6 days, including the final exam, with 4 sims and a check-ride! Was like standing under Niagra-Falls trying to take a drink!!

I am just curious as to what you think is an appropriate amount of training for an upgrade on the same piece of equipment that you have been flying? The systems don't change. The limitations don't change. The manuals don't change. The process for flying approaches does not change.

An upgrade candidate on the same aircraft type has had a likely minimum of 6 months in the airplane. That is plenty of time to learn the systems, the SOP, the Ops manual. When an upgrade becomes imminent, any FO should be able to learn the new flows and the other half of the memory items in a few weeks. There is no reason to fear the checkride.

Now, not feeling ready to be a captain after less than year (or less than 3 years, whatever) is different. I can understand not feeling as though you have seen enough to know how to run the show on your own. I can understand not wanting to make the diversion decision for the first time having never watched a captain do it. But if you were able to pass the initial checkride, you should be able to pass the upgrade ride. Just stop forgetting what you already learned!

 

[staylow]

Funny...this happened back in early 2001, before 9/11. Class finished Indoc and Systems ground school and they were told they would be called for their sim dates...never happened. Some finally got called back in July or August of 2002. Then Lakes furloughed again every summer for the next couple of years.

 

[Chairman]

Just feel for the guys who will have to pay back the $7500 training contract in full when they choose not to take the recall!

 

[AceCrackshot]

Just feel for the guys who will have to pay back the $7500 training contract in full when they choose not to take the recall!

If they pay it back, they deserve to lose the money.

Furlough=breach of contract.

 

[Cardinal]

I am just curious as to what you think is an appropriate amount of training for an upgrade on the same piece of equipment that you have been flying?
.....
But if you were able to pass the initial checkride, you should be able to pass the upgrade ride. Just stop forgetting what you already learned!

You make some excellent points, and raise a good question. I agree completely; that a reasonably experienced, well-trained aviator with the proper mindset should clear initial and be able to follow it up with a successful upgrade relatively soon. But with the exception of a few at Lakes who meet that criteria, that isn't the case.

Many of our newhires are downright dragged over the finish line during initial, gasping for breath, instructor tugging by the collar. Low-time guys hurried through an atrocious ground school (ambifurcated plenum? narsuls? They're making up new words) sent to briefly wrestle with an unflyable sim where weight lifiting is more valuable than decision making, then put in the right seat of the aircraft at 3am after bouncing around in a cabin seat for the preceeding six hours, pissing in a bottle...it's a hell of a month, where they learn alot but not nearly enough. "You'll figure it out on the line." Hopefully. Maybe.

These horrors are remembered from the first time through, and they know the standard will be higher during upgrade, after all that's the threat they were browbeat with during initial. Imagined or not, they know it's gonna suck.

And heck, it isn't the upgrade training or even the checkride most fear, it's the arcane written pretest that must be passed on day one to proceed with training. Everytime the test is updated, 80% of the first batch fail it and go home.

This place is completely dysfunctional. A culture of fear instilled at every turn, CRM trained out of crews, a focus on the irrelevant. Someday a crew is going to auger into a mountain while fretting about why the D.O. just left a nasty message on their voicemail. Just a matter of time.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

What was the start date of the class that was sent home?

6th grade.

 

[DeltaLima21]

Whats the deal with the Flight Attendant from Lakes that tried to bring 2 handguns through security. I heard that MGMT has indicated that anyone talking about it publicly will be fired. What kind of B.S. Company is that? We must live in Russia Now.

 

[AceCrackshot]

You make some excellent points, and raise a good question. I agree completely; that a reasonably experienced, well-trained aviator with the proper mindset should clear initial and be able to follow it up with a successful upgrade relatively soon. But with the exception of a few at Lakes who meet that criteria, that isn't the case.

Many of our newhires are downright dragged over the finish line during initial, gasping for breath, instructor tugging by the collar. Low-time guys hurried through an atrocious ground school (ambifurcated plenum? narsuls? They're making up new words) sent to briefly wrestle with an unflyable sim where weight lifiting is more valuable than decision making, then put in the right seat of the aircraft at 3am after bouncing around in a cabin seat for the preceeding six hours, pissing in a bottle...it's a hell of a month, where they learn alot but not nearly enough. "You'll figure it out on the line." Hopefully. Maybe.

These horrors are remembered from the first time through, and they know the standard will be higher during upgrade, after all that's the threat they were browbeat with during initial. Imagined or not, they know it's gonna suck.

And heck, it isn't the upgrade training or even the checkride most fear, it's the arcane written pretest that must be passed on day one to proceed with training. Everytime the test is updated, 80% of the first batch fail it and go home.

This place is completely dysfunctional. A culture of fear instilled at every turn, CRM trained out of crews, a focus on the irrelevant. Someday a crew is going to auger into a mountain while fretting about why the D.O. just left a nasty message on their voicemail. Just a matter of time.

Wow, its nice to know there are some constants in life...Lakes training sucking is one of them.

 

[glasspilot]

take it back!

That's a low blow Nacho, and I think you know it. After dodging summer TCU's, riding the bronco a DEN arrival can be from the west, and landing in a max gusty xw, a GLA pilot, even an FO, has plenty of dignity firmly intact and respect pax as well. And that's just during the summer. Sure, the pay sucks, it always has. You don't have to have the right pay to maintain your dignity, earn respect from pax, and to maintain your professionalism flying fellow humans around.

I read that whole post waiting for the punch line. Then I got to the end and there wasn't one and I realized you're serious!!!

Let me see if I understand. You figure the respect you earn from your pax compensates for substandard PAY? ...wow.

Okay, here's the punch line...they don't respect you. They hate crawling on an RJ, how do think they feel about a 1900? They find cabin announcements an annoyance. They don't care the temperature at the destination is 24 degrees Celsius and they sure as hell don't care there's a light breeze from the North East.

When you cram yourself in the doorway as they deplane they're not looking at you with awe and reverence, they're just wondering why you won't get out of the way and think how akward you look stooped over and crammed between the galley and cockpit.

If you're willing to trade pay for respect then you deserve what you get...nothing.

 

[mesaserf]

You make some excellent points, and raise a good question. I agree completely; that a reasonably experienced, well-trained aviator with the proper mindset should clear initial and be able to follow it up with a successful upgrade relatively soon. But with the exception of a few at Lakes who meet that criteria, that isn't the case.

Many of our newhires are downright dragged over the finish line during initial, gasping for breath, instructor tugging by the collar. Low-time guys hurried through an atrocious ground school (ambifurcated plenum? narsuls? They're making up new words) sent to briefly wrestle with an unflyable sim where weight lifiting is more valuable than decision making, then put in the right seat of the aircraft at 3am after bouncing around in a cabin seat for the preceeding six hours, pissing in a bottle...it's a hell of a month, where they learn alot but not nearly enough. "You'll figure it out on the line." Hopefully. Maybe.

These horrors are remembered from the first time through, and they know the standard will be higher during upgrade, after all that's the threat they were browbeat with during initial. Imagined or not, they know it's gonna suck.

And heck, it isn't the upgrade training or even the checkride most fear, it's the arcane written pretest that must be passed on day one to proceed with training. Everytime the test is updated, 80% of the first batch fail it and go home.

This place is completely dysfunctional. A culture of fear instilled at every turn, CRM trained out of crews, a focus on the irrelevant. Someday a crew is going to auger into a mountain while fretting about why the D.O. just left a nasty message on their voicemail. Just a matter of time.

I went to school with the guy who used to run the training department at lakes many moons ago. Nice to see the legacy of BS that was fostered at our Alum has continued to poison the industry. You know what I mean.

An over emphasis on arcane knit picky Sh#t and reliance on brute memorization instead of realistic training.

Cowboy attitudes and egos from check airmen who have to turn a check ride into some kind of juvenile dick measuring contest. I.E. Why…don’t you know I am typed in a (Aircraft of choice here)!

All this backed up by a management staff that can only rule by fear instead of lead by example.

And to think these pricks still send me letters asking for money for the Alumni Association.

Mesaserf

 

[Crossky]

I read that whole post waiting for the punch line. Then I got to the end and there wasn't one and I realized you're serious!!!

Let me see if I understand. You figure the respect you earn from your pax compensates for substandard PAY? ...wow.

Okay, here's the punch line...they don't respect you. They hate crawling on an RJ, how do think they feel about a 1900? They find cabin announcements an annoyance. They don't care the temperature at the destination is 24 degrees Celsius and they sure as hell don't care there's a light breeze from the North East.

When you cram yourself in the doorway as they deplane they're not looking at you with awe and reverence, they're just wondering why you won't get out of the way and think how akward you look stooped over and crammed between the galley and cockpit.

If you're willing to trade pay for respect then you deserve what you get...nothing.

I can't help you if someone pissed in your cheerios, buddy. My original post was in response to another writing that one has '10 times more dignity working at McDonald's' than flying at Lakes. You're misunderstanding this whole thing. Respect DOES NOT compensate for a lack of pay, whether it's at a bottom feeder commuter or an undercutting LCC. When a passenger entrusts you with their lives, you've got their respect, regardless of pay, no matter if you're flying a 1900 or a 777. I hope you agree, if not then we have a drastic difference in our definitions of what it means to be a professional.

 

[acpilot]

take it back!

That's a low blow Nacho, and I think you know it. After dodging summer TCU's, riding the bronco a DEN arrival can be from the west, and landing in a max gusty xw, a GLA pilot, even an FO, has plenty of dignity firmly intact and respect pax as well. And that's just during the summer. Sure, the pay sucks, it always has. You don't have to have the right pay to maintain your dignity, earn respect from pax, and to maintain your professionalism flying fellow humans around.

They may not rake in the cash, but they CAN fly! Seems to me that, aside from the pay, flying a Beech 1900 in blizzards to remote non-radar airports with non-precision approaches is the second fastest way to sharpen actual flying skills, not just system management/IT skills.