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JaX2Mdw4ASaab
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Vik
Well-known member
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- Dec 27, 2001
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- 913
Something like that is probably going to happen. Look at JetBlue right now .. forcasted to make its first loss soon (at the end of this quarter actually).
The larger airlines might be falling, but they have the resources to crush JetBlue, ATA, AirTran, etc. If UAL gets its labor costs down and trims the fat off the airline, you might even see SWA feeling the heat.
The larger airlines might be falling, but they have the resources to crush JetBlue, ATA, AirTran, etc. If UAL gets its labor costs down and trims the fat off the airline, you might even see SWA feeling the heat.
Flying the Line said:
BLUE BAYOU
Well-known member
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Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
- Joined
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The entire domestic market will model jetblue and SWA... That is one airline industry... The other airline industry will be the widebody Transcon, but more importantly transoceanic.
Perhaps the ol' glory of yesteryear may return as the Widebody captains become few and far between and the rest of us, work our tails off in B737 and A320 cockpits....
Some will take a crack at LCC widebody.... but pax will be willing to pay for extra comfort on that 8+ hour flight.....
So, are you going to position yourself to be common domestic Capt or go for the rare opportunity to be a wide body Capt!!
Perhaps the ol' glory of yesteryear may return as the Widebody captains become few and far between and the rest of us, work our tails off in B737 and A320 cockpits....
Some will take a crack at LCC widebody.... but pax will be willing to pay for extra comfort on that 8+ hour flight.....
So, are you going to position yourself to be common domestic Capt or go for the rare opportunity to be a wide body Capt!!
The larger airlines might be falling, but they have the resources to crush JetBlue, ATA, AirTran, etc. If UAL gets its labor costs down and trims the fat off the airline, you might even see SWA feeling the heat.[/QUOTE]
uhhhhh...REALLY? hmmmm...i think you better put down the USA Today as your source of industry education... in reality...some of these airlines could pay their pilots NOTHING and still lose money...i guess then your theory of crushing LCC's would work?
how bout them resources? LOL
uhhhhh...REALLY? hmmmm...i think you better put down the USA Today as your source of industry education... in reality...some of these airlines could pay their pilots NOTHING and still lose money...i guess then your theory of crushing LCC's would work?
how bout them resources? LOL
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
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- 2,817
"The larger airlines might be falling, but they have the resources to crush JetBlue, ATA, AirTran, etc. If UAL gets its labor costs down and trims the fat off the airline, you might even see SWA feeling the heat".
And then what? Somebody else will show up, doing exactly the same thing. As for crushing SWA, although stranger things have happened, I think that is highly unlikely, considering not only their competetive spirit, but also their cash balance.
The airlines have since dereg, operated in a boom-bust cycles, entertaining fare wars. Kind of like a game of mutually assured destruction for global domination. To heck with profits, it is all about marketshare, to heck with profits, we are the worlds largest airline, etc.
As someone else pointed out, the doors were coming unhinged at UAL prior to 9/11. It must be said however, that to blame the problems on UAL on labor alone is ingenious.
And then what? Somebody else will show up, doing exactly the same thing. As for crushing SWA, although stranger things have happened, I think that is highly unlikely, considering not only their competetive spirit, but also their cash balance.
The airlines have since dereg, operated in a boom-bust cycles, entertaining fare wars. Kind of like a game of mutually assured destruction for global domination. To heck with profits, it is all about marketshare, to heck with profits, we are the worlds largest airline, etc.
As someone else pointed out, the doors were coming unhinged at UAL prior to 9/11. It must be said however, that to blame the problems on UAL on labor alone is ingenious.
sluminginpit
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Posts
- 99
Dude, do you really belive what you said!
Forstarters I'm going to aplogize for what i'm going to say. I don't hold you responsible for the indusrty decline, you are doing what you have to to feed your family. But lets look at a few things you belive.
First, a question? If you woke up tommorow and gas was $5.00 a gallon at every gas staition in the world, would you pay for it? Yep you bet you would!
Ok with that said, every LCC is closer to going out of business everday. Historicly, excluding Southwest thay all fail. Think back to all the LCC that have come and gone. As time goes on and the employees gain senority thier pay goes up costing the company more. Everytime another LCC goes into business, theres less of the pie to go around.
What needs to be done in the industry is to set a fair market value for routes, say $500 to go JFK-LAX, when a LCC charges only $59 each way your companies losing money (and if their not, its being supplement from your salary). The airline indusrty is a business offering a service for a fee, bills are not paid by allowing the new passenger to fly because he can afford to. Air travel is a commodity.
Before September 11, no one planned on Airtran as thier career goal, yes you have to adjust but lets have some respect. Leonard is a dipsH!t, he wants the equivilent of welfare to grow his comapay. He wines about he goverment not giving him gates at slot controlled airports stating that its an unfair advantage to his company. He does shady deals behind the seens (MDW). Those are assests thay cost money, how would you like my business next to yours be supplemented by the government, want to compete?
The government tries to keep the legacy carriers in business because their chances of long term survival is greater.
The industry has changed, we as the pilots and other airline employees have large responsibilities, I don't think its asking to much to make a good living.
Re-regulation would not be bad. It would allow competition to increase, with fewer airlines theirs fewer sets, and supply and demand would raise prices. Don't kid youself about economics, people are wealthier now than every before.
Keep working for your LCC, enjoy the ride, your time will come.
If you were a true captalist, beliving in greed, you would demand to be paid what your worth! If we all held out instead of accepting this situation we would be better off.
Forstarters I'm going to aplogize for what i'm going to say. I don't hold you responsible for the indusrty decline, you are doing what you have to to feed your family. But lets look at a few things you belive.
First, a question? If you woke up tommorow and gas was $5.00 a gallon at every gas staition in the world, would you pay for it? Yep you bet you would!
Ok with that said, every LCC is closer to going out of business everday. Historicly, excluding Southwest thay all fail. Think back to all the LCC that have come and gone. As time goes on and the employees gain senority thier pay goes up costing the company more. Everytime another LCC goes into business, theres less of the pie to go around.
What needs to be done in the industry is to set a fair market value for routes, say $500 to go JFK-LAX, when a LCC charges only $59 each way your companies losing money (and if their not, its being supplement from your salary). The airline indusrty is a business offering a service for a fee, bills are not paid by allowing the new passenger to fly because he can afford to. Air travel is a commodity.
Before September 11, no one planned on Airtran as thier career goal, yes you have to adjust but lets have some respect. Leonard is a dipsH!t, he wants the equivilent of welfare to grow his comapay. He wines about he goverment not giving him gates at slot controlled airports stating that its an unfair advantage to his company. He does shady deals behind the seens (MDW). Those are assests thay cost money, how would you like my business next to yours be supplemented by the government, want to compete?
The government tries to keep the legacy carriers in business because their chances of long term survival is greater.
The industry has changed, we as the pilots and other airline employees have large responsibilities, I don't think its asking to much to make a good living.
Re-regulation would not be bad. It would allow competition to increase, with fewer airlines theirs fewer sets, and supply and demand would raise prices. Don't kid youself about economics, people are wealthier now than every before.
Keep working for your LCC, enjoy the ride, your time will come.
If you were a true captalist, beliving in greed, you would demand to be paid what your worth! If we all held out instead of accepting this situation we would be better off.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
"The government tries to keep the legacy carriers in business because their chances of long term survival is greater".
Or maybe they have more political clout. If the legacies are better, then were is Braniff, EAL, PAA. Perhaps keeping U alive is the worst thing possible, since it negates the laws of the market place and places a larger burden on all carriers. If U were to fail, DAL, AMR, UAL etc. would pick up the slack and we could well see an increase in farelevels with less capacity. Keeping capacity high, by propping up failing carriers is a recipe for disaster. Not only for the business, but also for the employees. Point in case, U cancelled the pension, now UAL seem poised to follow and AA has said they are watching UAL. Had U disappeared, that may perhaps not have happened.
"Re-regulation would not be bad. It would allow competition to increase, with fewer airlines theirs fewer sets, and supply and demand would raise prices.
Reregulation would not be bad for who, UAL, AMR? Oh, I am sure they are longing for the old days. I cannot believe, that you said reregulating the industry would increase competetion, since it would do exactly the opposite and hence is why the legacies wish for it to happen. Yes, it would raise fares, probably to the point that we would see a dramtic dcrease in passengers.
Reregulation ransk right up there with a wet dream, featuring Heidi, for the legacy execs.
"Don't kid youself about economics, people are wealthier now than every before".
Oh really, and pray tell, what do you base that on? W-2s or spendable income. If that truly was the case, then how come the elasticity of the market place, particularily airlines, says differently. Tell you what , since people have so much money, why are they not flying in business or first? Or could it be, that both discretiory consumer and business spending is down, which would indicate troubled financial times?
Or maybe they have more political clout. If the legacies are better, then were is Braniff, EAL, PAA. Perhaps keeping U alive is the worst thing possible, since it negates the laws of the market place and places a larger burden on all carriers. If U were to fail, DAL, AMR, UAL etc. would pick up the slack and we could well see an increase in farelevels with less capacity. Keeping capacity high, by propping up failing carriers is a recipe for disaster. Not only for the business, but also for the employees. Point in case, U cancelled the pension, now UAL seem poised to follow and AA has said they are watching UAL. Had U disappeared, that may perhaps not have happened.
"Re-regulation would not be bad. It would allow competition to increase, with fewer airlines theirs fewer sets, and supply and demand would raise prices.
Reregulation would not be bad for who, UAL, AMR? Oh, I am sure they are longing for the old days. I cannot believe, that you said reregulating the industry would increase competetion, since it would do exactly the opposite and hence is why the legacies wish for it to happen. Yes, it would raise fares, probably to the point that we would see a dramtic dcrease in passengers.
Reregulation ransk right up there with a wet dream, featuring Heidi, for the legacy execs.
"Don't kid youself about economics, people are wealthier now than every before".
Oh really, and pray tell, what do you base that on? W-2s or spendable income. If that truly was the case, then how come the elasticity of the market place, particularily airlines, says differently. Tell you what , since people have so much money, why are they not flying in business or first? Or could it be, that both discretiory consumer and business spending is down, which would indicate troubled financial times?
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AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
Would you all just cut the crap about LCC's undercutting fares? My company puts us on the cheapest flights available. Who are we riding on? UAL.
Last week, I did LAX-JFK-WAW(Warsaw). We paid $2,000 for a business class, two-day advance purchase, refundable ticket. The JFK-WAW portion was on LOT but it was a UAL codeshare. Others are travelling this weekend(busiest of the year) and who are they flying? UAL again.
The closest we've gotten to a LCC is ATA... Once and that was for scheduling purposes.
The Ch. 11 dwellers are giving away tickets to generate cash flow. There would be a very different price structure if no one was in Ch. 11.TC
Last week, I did LAX-JFK-WAW(Warsaw). We paid $2,000 for a business class, two-day advance purchase, refundable ticket. The JFK-WAW portion was on LOT but it was a UAL codeshare. Others are travelling this weekend(busiest of the year) and who are they flying? UAL again.
The closest we've gotten to a LCC is ATA... Once and that was for scheduling purposes.
The Ch. 11 dwellers are giving away tickets to generate cash flow. There would be a very different price structure if no one was in Ch. 11.TC
Midnight Mike
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2002
- Posts
- 413
Dave Benjamin said:
If done correctly, the pilots will not notice the difference. When hiring Contract Instructors, you can simply hire United Pilots that are over 60 years old & can not fly anymore. The problem with using Line Pilots for training is that it is very expensive, in fact, having a professional instructor in the simulator or in the classroom may actualy improve training.
GuppyPuppy
Living the Dream
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 803
Yes, it is expensive to have line pilots training in the sim. However, I believe that it is well worth the money. I have been through many training programs at many different airlines. My training at UAL was, by far, the best training I have ever had. Having a line pilot in the sim also gives the instructor a better perspective and can bring some real world experience to the training environment.Midnight Mike said:
I've flown with "professional" instructors at other companies. Some were over age 60 and some weren't. They didn't even come close to the level of an instructor at United.
United instructors go through a rigorous application process and then will be a prodigy for about a year before they can instruct on their own. It really didn't matter who was intstructing me, all the instructors expected the same result. There was a high degree of continuity between the instructors so I never feared getting stuck with some unfair jacka$$ in the sim.
I just don't see how having outside contractors instruct UAL pilots would improve training.
Cheers!
GP
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ThisistheDream
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2004
- Posts
- 293
To keep it short and simple how can an airline make any money when the cost of a ticket is cheaper today then it was 20 years ago.!!!!!!!!! I cant think of any service ( ticket) that is the same or cheaper today than it was 20 years ago. How much did it cost to ride a train or greyhound 20 years ago? get your car fixed?The public has become to acustomed and expects a cheap airfare eveythime they fly. The truth is people will still fly in the same numbers if they had to pay more. A round trip ticket from ORD to LAX for 189 dollars would sell just as many seats as a 325-350 dollar fare would. Why becuase it still the cheapest way to travel for your time and money!!!!!! and if you lose the occasional vacation person or family because they thinks it to high the 150 dollars more each sold for will take care of that so you would have less passengers and making the same money.
I think many pilots, especially young or new ones, are blind optimists. They think that if they can just get their foot in the door that they will be one of the lucky ones. But in some ways maybe being an optimist is better than being jaded and bitter like some of the other pilots I see posting here. The best attitude is probably somewhere in-betweenVik said:
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