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canyonblue

Everyone loves Southwest
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,314
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]WASHINGTON, D.C. - Normally, Washington isn't a town full of obvious win-win solutions. Think tax reform. Think Social Security.

But try this fix on for size. With the U.S. airline industry's economic crisis continuing, airlines are seeking to abandon or restructure their pension plans. Meanwhile, graying commercial airline pilots are feeling pressured by a longstanding Federal Aviation Administration rule requiring them to retire at the age of 60. And the airlines are looking at a big bill for recruiting and training replacements.

So senators Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) and Jim Gibbons (R-Nev.) have proposed a rational solution: Tie the commercial pilot retirement age to the Social Security retirement age. Let the geezers fly.

Isn't that unsafe? A little history here might be instructive: The age 60 rule didn't start out as a safety issue. The airlines began instituting age 60 retirement rules as company policy in the late 1950s to avoid the expense of training older pilots, who were soon to retire anyway, how to fly jet aircraft. When that caused labor problems, federal regulators stepped in and obligingly issued the age 60 rule, citing medical data suggesting anyone older could be too senile for take-off. Well yes, and a 50-year-old could have a massive coronary. And a 40-year-old could have a drinking problem. And a 30-year-old...You get the idea. Fitness to fly is one thing, age is another.

Over time, the Air Line Pilots Association came to love the 60 and out rule. After all, pilots at legacy carriers like AMR's American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Continental Airlines could retire at 60 with fat defined-benefit pensions and start new careers or putter around the golf course.

But times have changed. Pilots at such discount carriers such as AirTran Holdings , JetBlue Airways and Southwest Airlines want the retirement rule abolished. They have defined-contribution 401(k) retirement plans, which means that the longer the discount carrier pilots work, the bigger their nest eggs. (Defined-benefit plans, by contrast, traditionally have been structured so that the additional pension earned from working past a certain age is minimal.)

Now pilots at the economically strapped old-line carriers are looking at diminished defined-benefit pensions. And ALPA says it is reexamining its position on the FAA's Age 60 rule.

The time would seem to be right for a change.

Gibbons and Inhofe have introduced bills before to boost the retirement age before. Those went nowhere. But this time around, Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Subcommittee on Aviation, has signaled a willingness to hold hearings this Spring on the proposed rule change.

Someone all these very smart people might want to hear from on this topic? Michael Melvill, 63, who last year became the first pilot to fly a commercial aircraft into space.
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"But times have changed. Pilots at such discount carriers such as AirTran Holdings , JetBlue Airways and Southwest Airlines want the retirement rule abolished. They have defined-contribution 401(k) retirement plans, which means that the longer the discount carrier pilots work, the bigger their nest eggs. (Defined-benefit plans, by contrast, traditionally have been structured so that the additional pension earned from working past a certain age is minimal.) "



NERDS!



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
canyonblue said:
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But times have changed. Pilots at such discount carriers such as AirTran Holdings , JetBlue Airways and Southwest Airlines want the retirement rule abolished.
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Not this AirTran pilot!
 
Nor this SWA pilot, Id recommend calling your elected officals not to support this. If you have a guy that wants to change the age 60, tell him we need it changed so that all of the retirees came come back, then watch his or her face change when the dumass realizes his going backwards.
 
Nor this AirTran pilot. It seems someone has been doing some lobbying on behalf of the airline pilots in our industry without asking the pilots what their opinion is. Some will definitely be in favor of the rule change (see 50+ yr. old pilots with 4 wives) The plight to Increase the retirement age is being fought by the vocal minority and claiming they are representing all of us. I hope the writer of this article will print a retraction to his statements because I, for one, don't want to be included in his broad generalizations.
 
This JetBlue pilot doesn't agree with the bill either. I've already called my Senator.

We all got into the game knowing the rules; you can't change midstream. I don't say that to be callous, especially to those folks that have had their career's devastated (I've been furloughed for three years myself). But I've always been the type to save for a rainy day, and I know if I lost my medical tomorrow, I'd land on my feet outside of aviation.
 
Falcon Jet 1 said:
Nor this SWA pilot, Id recommend calling your elected officals not to support this. If you have a guy that wants to change the age 60, tell him we need it changed so that all of the retirees came come back, then watch his or her face change when the dumass realizes his going backwards.

The provisions of Para 2 of the bill (HR65 and S65) would not permit those already retired under the age 60 rule to come back.

"Nothing in paragraph (1) shall provide the basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, made by any pilot seeking re-employment by such air carrier following the pilot's previous termination or cessation of employment as mandated by section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations."
 
All those opposed to abolishing the age 60 rule, what reasons have you been giving to your Senate, etc. and what age are you now?

I'm 40 and hopefully have 20 years to go. I would be negatively impacted by extending the retirement age for another 20 years but I don't see where it's fair to mandatorily ask someone to retire if they are healthy enough to continue working at the job they love.

Are you secretly thinking about killing this bill now because certainly by the time you are about to reach 60 you can then change the bill when it will benefit you?

We all got into the game knowing the rules; you can't change midstream.

Which rules are you referring to? The IRS rules that change every year or our contracts that are constantly under attack. How about the complete destruction of our industry and pensions that thousands of pilots thought they could count on.

Are these the rules that you are referring to?
 
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No way we change the rules now. Next thing you know, guys will want to change the 8 in 24 hour rule to do transcon turns, and then they will want to be allowed to marry their SISTER! That is sick!


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
No way we change the rules now. Next thing you know, guys will want to change the 8 in 24 hour rule to do transcon turns, and then they will want to be allowed to marry their SISTER! That is sick!

General, I'm concerned of the views you hold of your fellow Delta pilots.
 
captain caveman said:
General Lee said:
No way we change the rules now. Next thing you know, guys will want to change the 8 in 24 hour rule to do transcon turns, and then they will want to be allowed to marry their SISTER! That is sick!

General, I'm concerned of the views you hold of your fellow Delta pilots.


Ok, what? I'm not talking about DL pilots here.......


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
This SWA Pilot is against it too. Just a thought, but if a 60 + yr old could not then pass a physical, wouldnt he/she then be entitled to the Loss of License insurance that most of us carry. Seems like we'd all be paying the price. Anyone that thinks older is better, email me and I'll set you up for a car ride with my Grandpa who's been driving since 1930.
 
I'd rather die in my sleep, like my father.


Not screaming and crying, like his passengers.
 
GL, With 4325 plus post YOU call SWA, AAI and JBLU guys NERDS, look in the mirror thier boy-o'.

I cant say for JBLU or SWA, but AAI's MGT have not stated a preference one way or the other. I would be willing to bet they would want to hire older workers, so the retire and they can hire new Pilots at a lower wage.
 
Keep going till I drop

A few years ago I thought the notion of working pass age sixty was silly. But that was before the two furloughs and the loss of most of my company sponsored (Defined Benefit) retirement. Now, if I can get my walker through the door of a 737, I'll keep going till the AED batteries run down, the portable O2 bottles are depleted and the advance medical bag is out of adrenaline.

The line from the song “You don’t know what you got till it’s gone.” is so appropriate in this business. Starting over three times in two years made me examine my motives behind staying in aviation. I choose to embrace the career/lifestyle and if I can continue past sixty, I will.

GVE
 
I saw a study once supporting the current age 60 rule. It used as its basis the fact that, among all commercial aviation events there was a correlation of age and accident/incidents. The faulty part of this study was that it compared younger Part 121/135 pilots against older Part 135 pilots. If you take away the advantage given to the younger crowd afforded by the better stats that pilots of any age doing Part 121 work have over pilots of any age doing Part 135 work, I doubt that the evidence would be there. In fact, I did a limited study where I did NOT see older Part 135 pilots having a worse record (indeed, it looked better to me) than their younger Part 135 counterparts. While I found no older than 60 accidents, I found one involving a 29 year old captain who thought it would be a good idea to buzz a car going down a dirt road (DURING scheduled 135 work mind you) and then to continue low level to destination. He had a hard time explaining the broken propeller and fuselage tears from the wire strike he had.

I would like to see a scientifically managed study among Part 135 pilots with the overall population proportionally represented to see what the accident rates are for 23-29 vs 60-66 groups. In other words, if old pilots account for 3% of the Part 135 flying, do they account for more or less than 3% of the accidents? I would start with a hypothesis that said less.

That would be my reason for supporting a change.

As far as LuckyDad's grandpa, wouldn't he be in his 90's now? I'm not advocating the age limit be relaxed THAT much.
 
FLB717 said:
GL, With 4325 plus post YOU call SWA, AAI and JBLU guys NERDS, look in the mirror thier boy-o'.

I cant say for JBLU or SWA, but AAI's MGT have not stated a preference one way or the other. I would be willing to bet they would want to hire older workers, so the retire and they can hire new Pilots at a lower wage.

You are a nerd too. I have that many posts because I have a strong opinion about EVERYTHING and have the fortitude to express myself at will. Don't worry, a nerd like yourself will probably grow out of it. Seacrest, out.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
it IS going to change ..........at least that is what MY crystal ball is saying. and YES things do change midstream
 
This JetBlue pilot say's B.S. to this. On my 60th, I want to roll a nice Doobie and sail off into the sunset, never be heard from again....
 
Front Office said:
This JetBlue pilot say's B.S. to this. On my 60th, I want to roll a nice Doobie and sail off into the sunset, never be heard from again....

Good Kharma, dude. Righteous good Kharma. THTA's what I'm talkin about, my brother from another mother.
 

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