Grandstanding @sshole Mainline Pilots

[Erlanger]

She said that scope is non negotiable. So, what that tells me is that they want to immediately do away with all outsourced regional flying, whether it's 50 seats or 100 seats. If not, then it is negotiable. Either there are regionals or there aren't. Are they willing to strike over any outsourcing or just some? Not really clear where she's coming from.

It's all posturing folks. In the end nothing will change with the regionals. Mainline will end up paying their pilots more with better work rules to drop this issue and we know they'll all take it. (atleast enough will to pass the contract)

 

[sleeves]

It's all posturing folks. In the end nothing will change with the regionals. Mainline will end up paying their pilots more with better work rules to drop this issue and we know they'll all take it. (atleast enough will to pass the contract)

I do not think so. At least at Cal, I fly with some pretty senior guys. They see that it effects them as well. For me personally, unless they can bring my father back from the dead, I can think of nothing I would take to sign away scope on this contract.

 

[Whydoitry]

If you can get the flying back it is going to be at a very high price. All contracts have a total cost associated with them. By bringing the outsourced flying in-house the total cost of that contract is going to go sky high and therefore there will have to be cuts from other areas. In plain terms, the only way UAL goes for it is if the cost to bring the flying in is the same or at least close to what it currently is as outsourced.

With all the high expectations of work rule improvements and 30-40% pay increases, I just don't think the pilots will have the stomach to hold strong on scope and not see all the other improvements that they want. I hope I'm wrong and wish you luck.

 

[Whydoitry]

I do not think so. At least at Cal, I fly with some pretty senior guys. They see that it effects them as well. For me personally, unless they can bring my father back from the dead, I can think of nothing I would take to sign away scope on this contract.

Would you be willing to work under the current UAL work rules (an improvement over CAL) and a 5% pay increase and a 10 year contract to get rid of the outsourcing? You may say yes, the guy sitting next to you says hell no. Each pilot has different expectations about the JCBA, all Smisek wants is to find that 50% +1 at each carrier.

 

[nimtz]

Would you be willing to work under the current UAL work rules (an improvement over CAL) and a 5% pay increase and a 10 year contract to get rid of the outsourcing? You may say yes, the guy sitting next to you says hell no. Each pilot has different expectations about the JCBA, all Smisek wants is to find that 50% +1 at each carrier.

With the notable exception of Eagle, who the f*ck signs a 10+ year contract? Come back to me with a realistic example if you want to play 'what if'...

 

[nimtz]

It's all posturing folks. In the end nothing will change with the regionals. Mainline will end up paying their pilots more with better work rules to drop this issue and we know they'll all take it. (atleast enough will to pass the contract)

Enjoy your weekends off BRO!!! Would really hate it if those pre Madonna mainline types actually tried to make your job a career again....

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Would you be willing to work under the current UAL work rules (an improvement over CAL) and a 5% pay increase and a 10 year contract to get rid of the outsourcing? You may say yes, the guy sitting next to you says hell no. Each pilot has different expectations about the JCBA, all Smisek wants is to find that 50% +1 at each carrier.

Actually it has to pass each MEC individually before it goes to a pilot vote. The MEC's seem to be standing strong on scope. I think you could kiss ALPA goodbye if they don't produce on scope. It is the #1 issue!!!

 

[waka]

They also have one of the best pft programs!:laugh:

There is one problem problem with your statement. Southwest is not PFT. Advice; Stop talking out of your ass....you won't sound like an idiot.

 

[FO 4 Life]

Enjoy your weekends off BRO!!! Would really hate it if those pre Madonna mainline types actually tried to make your job a career again....

So is that the 1958 pre Madonna, or the first album pre Madonna of 1983?

Not sure how many mainline types are still around pre Madonna.:laugh:

 

[DUATS]

The reason scope needs to be a big deal is not the guys currently flying at regionals - but the mainline pilots who will be moving to regionals if management gets its way. I am sure management looks forward to the day when the only flights that are flown by mainline end on a different continent than the one they started on: all domestic flying outsourced.

From my perspective, scope needs to be more than just seat count. It also needs to be distance. ORD-MIA? IAH-YYZ? These don't seem like regional routes to me!

 

[79%N1]

The reason scope needs to be a big deal is not the guys currently flying at regionals - but the mainline pilots who will be moving to regionals if management gets its way. I am sure management looks forward to the day when the only flights that are flown by mainline end on a different continent than the one they started on: all domestic flying outsourced.

From my perspective, scope needs to be more than just seat count. It also needs to be distance. ORD-MIA? IAH-YYZ? These don't seem like regional routes to me!

It is a "Regional route" if only 30-40 people are booked on it at the day/time that the flight is run. Should they put a 757 on it just because some mainline pilots think it is their God given right to fly people from ORD-MIA? That thinking makes no sense to me at all! Lets fly empty planes around! That is great for your company's bottom line!

 

[Whydoitry]

With the notable exception of Eagle, who the f*ck signs a 10+ year contract? Come back to me with a realistic example if you want to play 'what if'...

Ok 7yrs, my only point with the 10years is that I fear the company is going to ask for extraordinary things, such as the Eagle duration, in exchange for the outsourcing. I'm not arguing against the enhancement of scope, just that it is going to cost the pilot group to get it back.

If UAL saves $200 million/year by having Skywest and Republic fly 70 seat aircraft then its reasonable to assume that to recapture that flying will cost the pilot contract somewhere near $200 million. (numbers are purely hypothetical only management really knows)

For management a contract has a bottom line and that is all that matters to them. Scope is a major economic issue and when more than 55% of the flying is outsourced it's going to have a huge number associated with it. They don't care about career progression or any pilot's career.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Ok 7yrs, my only point with the 10years is that I fear the company is going to ask for extraordinary things, such as the Eagle duration, in exchange for the outsourcing. I'm not arguing against the enhancement of scope, just that it is going to cost the pilot group to get it back.

If UAL saves $200 million/year by having Skywest and Republic fly 70 seat aircraft then its reasonable to assume that to recapture that flying will cost the pilot contract somewhere near $200 million. (numbers are purely hypothetical only management really knows)

For management a contract has a bottom line and that is all that matters to them. Scope is a major economic issue and when more than 55% of the flying is outsourced it's going to have a huge number associated with it. They don't care about career progression or any pilot's career.

I agree to an extent, but some cost items keep going missed. The cost savings is minimal, if any at all, the whipsaw is what is important to management. There are many other things to factor here:

1. A lot of regionals are paying at the higher end of the payscale due to minimal movement as of late. Newhires at mainline may actually be cheaper.

2. There is no need for a regional CEO and full management team at mainline. Huge cost savings there.

3. No need for a corporate structure, IE, rents, hangers, attorneys, accounting departments, HR departments, etc...

4. No corporate profit for the regional, it is kept at mainline. Compnies like Skywest and Republic are not buying airlines with found money. These monies are corporate profits that are doing this. Huge savings there.

If anyone thinks that the above costs are not being looked at by management in the current negotiations, you have a real awakening coming. These planes can be flown at mainline, economically and rightfully so.

Yogi

 

[Whydoitry]

If the whipsaw is the primary motivator for outsourcing then that too has a number associated with it and mgt would expect to see cost savings in a new contract to counter their expected future cost savings from whipsawing.

I agree with all your points about keeping the money at the mainline, that was always the logic that dictated that CAL should have bought XJT back and integrated all the RJs. They could have had any size jet flown at XJT as a subsidiary with CAL pilots doing the flying, but they chose not to do that. So, with CAL brains running UAL, I am very skeptical that the outcome of this issue will really favor the new UAL pilots, or if it does the price will be astronomical.

 

[Dan Roman]

With the notable exception of Eagle, who the f*ck signs a 10+ year contract? Come back to me with a realistic example if you want to play 'what if'...

SWA did