GPS Not Installed

Vardog

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I have recently switched airports and the old one had GPS in all of the trainers. The airport that I switched to uses a Warrior as the primary trainer and it does not have a GPS installed. Will this make me a better instrument pilot by doing my training the "old way?"

What do you think?
 

asolo

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"The old way" may have served your balloon pilot father in the olden days, but today GPS is the norm. Training the old way can't hurt, but it will take a little longer considering you are going to learn both the "old" and the "new" way. I'm not really sure you're up for the "old" ways b/c you usually let your instructor do all the work right? QUICK....WHATS OUR GROUND SPEED!? j/k. I'll let somebody else give you a real answer and get back to my nap.

BLue Skies
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Snakum

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Unless you only rent new Skyhawks with Garmin 430s and unless you plan to never, ever fly freight in ratty Navahos and 310s or fly passengers in old King Airs and Barons ... yes ... learning the old stuff will be excellent training.

That way, if you ever find yourself in a thirty-year-old Baron with nothing but a radio, one VOR/CDI, and an RMI ... you won't look like a total idiot and say something stupid like "Hey ... how am I supposed to know where I am?" as you stare at the RMI with a confused look on your mug. :D

Minh
 
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FN FAL

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Vardog said:
I have recently switched airports and the old one had GPS in all of the trainers. The airport that I switched to uses a Warrior as the primary trainer and it does not have a GPS installed. Will this make me a better instrument pilot by doing my training the "old way?"

What do you think?
I switch airports three times a day and the GPS is still installed in the plane, have you thought about filing a police report?
 

Vardog

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Snakum

I believe that what you say is true - will I, however, have that confused look on my face whenever I get into an airplane that has a GPS or are they that easy to use?
 

DAS at 10/250

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Snakum speaks truth. I'm flying an '82 BE10 that has an old collins RNAV and some old crappy Loran. No GPS, MFD, or TCAS. We do have TAWS though. Set off the "Sink rate! Sink rate!" going into SAF.
 

Gutenberg

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Any 135 ride will test your ability to use both. I just did my initial PIC ride and I had to do a LOC/BC, GPS, VOR, and ILS. I used the screen on the 530 for situational awareness on all but the VOR approach, where the POI covered up the screens with paper. On the partial panel portion, I flipped the 430 to NAV 5 and used the compass and altitude readouts to help my overworked brain. Its really a great tool and it makes flying safer.
 

Snakum

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will I, however, have that confused look on my face whenever I get into an airplane that has a GPS or are they that easy to use?
In my personal experience, if you learn a Garmin 430, a KLN 89/90/94 will not be too difficult to learn. Almost all modern panel-mount, IFR-cert'd GPS work similarly and can be learnt with just a couple hours in the air. I learned the 430 using the Garmin trainer (free download), and when I went to the 94 in the B200 and the 89 in the Baron it was no problem switching over. There is also a trainer for the KLN series, but it's kinda crappy.

If I hadn't learned IFR flying first in older POS spam cans with ADFs and a single VOR ... I think I'd be having a much more difficult time trying to get up to speed in my new part-time gig. Having now used a Garmin 430, I believe it can spoil one silly and make flying on older equipment harder than it should be. You could, no doubt, learn enough about ADF/RMI or DME arcs using only a VOR/DME to pass the IR written, but if you've never actually flown NDB and DME approaches in a rat Cessna 150 ... that first flying job in a 1969 A90 could be a bear! :D

Minh
 
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Godvek

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I didn't know learning to fly instruments had anything to do with /G or /A equipment. Shows you how old I am.
 

seethru

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GPS navigation can be helpful to you if you're unfamiliar with it by using the "Direct To" feature. It will provide a stable needle for you to track, and if it has moving map, will help you with situational awareness.

There are many, many more features built into a GPS, however. And if you are unfamiliar with that particular brand (i.e. Garmin, Bendix/King, etc) you may find that your situational awareness, and other less important things like course, speed, and altitude, will decay as you fumble through the screens.

Get a safety pilot to go up with you, bring your manuals, and spend a lot of time practicing with the unit. As Snakum said earlier, each manufacturer provides a downloadable simulator.

Personally I have found the Garmin 430/530 the most intuitive to work with, but the KLN models are also full featured.
 
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FN FAL said:
I switch airports three times a day and the GPS is still installed in the plane, have you thought about filing a police report?
roflmao, now I am going to the store to get some fried chicken!

That was great!
 

LowlyPropCapt

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Snakum said:
Unless you only rent new Skyhawks with Garmin 430s and unless you plan to never, ever fly freight in ratty Navahos and 310s or fly passengers in old King Airs and Barons ... yes ... learning the old stuff will be excellent training.

That way, if you ever find yourself in a thirty-year-old Baron with nothing but a radio, one VOR/CDI, and an RMI ... you won't look like a total idiot and say something stupid like "Hey ... how am I supposed to know where I am?" as you stare at the RMI with a confused look on your mug. :D

Minh
... Or pretty much any steam gauge or first generation glass (EFIS) airliner on a day when the FMS/RNAV is on MEL. I have had many of those days flying the Dash and the ATR. As a matter of fact, the ATR was "IFR the old fashioned way" full time. There was no area nav equipment installed whatsoever.
 

mtrv

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If you can afford it ($1495), get yourself a Garmin 296 hand-held. It's small & very light, and will mount to the yoke. The display & resolution is actually a lot better than the 430 or 530. It also includes terrain features & terrain/obsticle warning. You can take it home to practice with the simulator mode, and pre-program routes too.

If you can't spend that much, then take a look at the Lowance's.

One thing for sure; If a CFI try's to convince you that a GPS is somehow cheating, lazyness, or just not needed, let alone flaunting the myth of high failure rates; then get a new instructor, as this type, has not apparently yet advanced into the more modern & safer age of flight!
 

CitationXDriver

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There is little doubt that GPS is a valuable tool to have in the cockpit, but the VOR, RMI, NDB and others can be just as valuable, even more so in certain times. I would suggest finish your training/checkride in the non GPS aircraft, then maybe pony up some cash somewhere or go make some good friends and get some GPS experience. If you have any doubt about how valuable learning the basics is, just tune in your local Center freq and listen for the airliners asking for headings.
On a side note, if you want to to watch your friends call you a liar, let them in on the fact that many airliners flying out there have only very basic nav instruments on board. This is also a perfect time to let them in on the large amount of non-radar environs throughout the US. Its usually very entertaining.
 

atrdriver

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asolo said:
"The old way" may have served your balloon pilot father in the olden days, but today GPS is the norm. Training the old way can't hurt, but it will take a little longer considering you are going to learn both the "old" and the "new" way. I'm not really sure you're up for the "old" ways b/c you usually let your instructor do all the work right? QUICK....WHATS OUR GROUND SPEED!? j/k. I'll let somebody else give you a real answer and get back to my nap.

BLue Skies
ASOLO
GPS may be the norm, but there are a LOT of 121 aircraft that don't have GPS, that are only /A, and that you will have to fly VOR's, and yes, even NDB's. I have had to do several real NDB approaches to mins flying 121, and I guarantee that a 121 checkride will have ILS, VOR, and NDB approaches on it.
 

Gutenberg

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For IFR, you should be familiar with all available equipment on the aircraft and use every resource available. The new instrument PTS places a keener focus on CRM, so using GPS should not preclude backing it up with VOR, DME, NDB, etc.

PS, anyone flying near Chicago on the tenth might want to check out the presidential TFR. Many satellite airports will be "closed" from about nine to noon.
 

CitationXDriver

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Gutenberg said:
PS, anyone flying near Chicago on the tenth might want to check out the presidential TFR. Many satellite airports will be "closed" from about nine to noon.
I saw it was centered around Montgomery, Illinois? Is he landing at ORD or somewhere south of there? I live nearby and wouldnt mind getting a peak at Air Force One.
 

mtrv

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PS, anyone flying near Chicago on the tenth might want to check out the presidential TFR. Many satellite airports will be "closed" from about nine to noon.
Where & when regarding TFR's is another plus of recent high tech. Using the new Garmin 396 hand-held GPS, a Garmin 1000 or Avidyne glass systems, and a few others combined with XM Satellite weather, will give you continous updates for TFR's every twelve minutes, including the boundaries drawn on the moving map. This is a PLUS anyway you look at it!
 

Bdfg1

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atrdriver said:
I guarantee that a 121 checkride will have ILS, VOR, and NDB approaches on it.
I guess the 121 checkrides that don't require a NDB approach are all doing it wrong. Someone contact the FAA!!!
 

Immelman

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I would say put some decent time into practice with the GPS shut off. In addition to the above, I think it deserves some time as it forces you, the pilot, to be situationally aware by calculating things out in your head, rather than relying on the computer. Just my opinion.
 
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