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GPS Approach question

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ackattacker

Client 9
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
2,125
I hate to post what sounds like a newbie question... but an informal survey at work reveals a large variety of opinions on this one from a group of supposedly professional pilots.

The question involves a GPS standalone approach in the typical "T" configuration.

graphically it looks kinda like this:

A (IAF)
|
| 3000/noPT
|
/---- B (IF/IAF)----------FAF--------MAP
\---- |
| 3000/noPT
|
C (IAF)

If it's not clear, there's a holding pattern course reversal charted at "B". I wasn't able to make it look right, the holding pattern should be off to the left (west).

No where else on the approach (other than the two feeder routes) is "NoPT" written.

So clearly, if you go to "A" or "C" then you go in with no procedure turn.
If you go to "B" from the east then you'd need to use the procedure turn.
But what if you go directly to "B" from the west? My initial response was that since there's no "NoPT" arrival sector charted, then you need to do the procedure turn.

But it seems like a lot of people go directly to B then straight to the FAF without doing the procedure turn. And looking it up in the AIM, it's clear that the intent of this sort of "TAA" approach is just that - no procedure turns. But the AIM sample charts all have NoPT approach sectors charted. I can't find it written anywhere that you would be authorized to skip the PT without having is specifically spelled out on the approach.

To make matters more confusing, when loading this approach on the Garmin GNS400 from direct B, the box asks "Hold at B?" Implying that it's legal either way.

Hopefully someone can clarify with a reference...
 
I don't have a reference for you, but it is SOP for our company to do a procedure turn in the case that you described. I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there with different opionions (insert famous quote here), but for me, if the plan view does not say NoPT, round and round we go. The PAX should not care (I hope) and in reallity, it probably only adds another 2 minutes to the flight.
 
NoPT

If Terminal Arrival Areas are depicted, the straight-in sector for western arrivals should look like a semicircle defined by a line connecting the A and C IAFs and within 30NM of B. This should indicate NoPT on the TAA depiction, but won't show it on the holding pattern itself. If no TAAs are depicted and there is only a holding pattern procedure shown for arrivals from the west, there is a terrain or airspace requirement for the procedure turn and it is required.
 
It would help if you would look at a specific chart. The "Standard T" configuration usually creates a semicircular area (with the T as the base) that is all NoPT.


From the Pilot/Controller Glossary

==============================
AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) APPROACH CONFIGURATION:
a. STANDARD T - An RNAV approach whose design allows direct flight to any one of three initial approach fixes (IAF) and eliminates the need for procedure turns. The standard design is to align the procedure on the extended centerline with the missed approach point (MAP) at the runway threshold, the final approach fix (FAF), and the initial approach/intermediate fix (IAF/IF). The other two IAFs will be established perpendicular to the IF.
==============================
 
One of the charts I specifically have a problem with is the RNAV (GPS) RWY 24L into GUM. Most of you probably don't carry around pacific approach plates, but if you're in AOPA you can pull it up on their website.

If you can pull it up take a good look at it. I can assure you that at 3000' (the altitude at the IAF/IF) there are no obstacles of any significance for 100 miles in any direction. There's even a feeder route nearly straight into the IAF/IF that doesn't specify NoPT, but I can assure you that Guam Center would be less than happy if you started spinning around out there without telling them.

As Midlifeflyer pointed out, the whole point of a T approach is to eliminate the need for procedure turns. You should be able to go straight in from that whole 180 degree area. But if it's not spelled out on the plate... I guess you have to do it? It seems idiotic.

ALL of the GPS approaches in this region look like this. Look at the RNAV (GPS) RWY 6R into GUM. Or the GPS 9 or GPS 27 into ROP. In fact there's not a TAA arrival sector charted in the entire Pacific Chart Supplement.

Even better... look at the RNAV (GPS) RWY 4 into TKK. It has a IF/IAF (FIGBI), which does NOT have a course reversal charted OR a NoPT arrival sector... it has a holding pattern depicted but it's part of the missed approach, not the initial. So if you went direct FIGBI (which you could do, since it's an IAF), what do you do when you get there?
 
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ackattacker said:
If you can pull it up take a good look at it. I can assure you that at 3000' (the altitude at the IAF/IF) there are no obstacles of any significance for 100 miles in any direction. There's even a feeder route nearly straight into the IAF/IF that doesn't specify NoPT, but I can assure you that Guam Center would be less than happy if you started spinning around out there without telling them.


I guess I should have clarified my statemnet a little better. If in a Non Radar environment, I would perform a procedure turn.


How's life in the land of the snakes? I sort of regret not say yes to the ATR ground school back in 2004. Are you in the 402? I was watching one on flight tracker a while back crossing the pacific towards Hawaii. That must be a huge ferry tank that goes into the fuselage.
 
ackattacker said:
One of the charts I specifically have a problem with is the RNAV (GPS) RWY 24L into GUM. Most of you probably don't carry around pacific approach plates, but if you're in AOPA you can pull it up on their website.

If you can pull it up take a good look at it. I can assure you that at 3000' (the altitude at the IAF/IF) there are no obstacles of any significance for 100 miles in any direction. There's even a feeder route nearly straight into the IAF/IF that doesn't specify NoPT, but I can assure you that Guam Center would be less than happy if you started spinning around out there without telling them.

This is one of those situations where it may be safe not to do the PT, but it's not legal. And - as you note, the controller probably doesn't expect you to do the PT either.

The only advice is clarify what the controller wants and what you're willing to do before you get to CIBOL - but this is one of the major problems with the current crop of published approaches. I was on frequency when a CFI-I candidate on his checkride was cleared to the center of the T, not an IAF in this case, and cleared for the approach. He negotiated a legal clearance out of the controller eventually - but to this day the controller has no idea why what he originally offered wasn't acceptable - and more to the point IS being accepted almost daily.
 
Geronimo4497 said:
I guess I should have clarified my statemnet a little better. If in a Non Radar environment, I would perform a procedure turn.


How's life in the land of the snakes? I sort of regret not say yes to the ATR ground school back in 2004. Are you in the 402? I was watching one on flight tracker a while back crossing the pacific towards Hawaii. That must be a huge ferry tank that goes into the fuselage.

Actually, GUM is a radar environment. A TRSA, believe it or not. Sadly, we no longer have 402's out here. They went back to earn their bread and butter doing the "ack attack" :) . I saw the ferry tanks they used and they're not as impressive as you might think. I'd be a little nervous...

Also, the only snakes I've ever seen out here were dead ones. Either they hide well or their numbers are overrated. We do squish impressive numbers of frogs every night. They just sit there on the taxiways and don't get out of the way.
 
This answer contains a bit of speculation. I might even be willing to bet on it, but not with much money. Not much more than an (semi-) educated guess.

Well, you clearly have a situation in which you have a Standard T GPS setup, but without TAAs.

The TKK one is actually easy to explain. If there is no PT depicted o the chart, you don't have to fly one. (Also, note the NoPT in the plan view)

For the GUM approach, I know that from time to time TAAs are not put into place for operational, rather than terrain, reasons. There might be some reason that, unless you are being vectored to the final approach course, the PT is wanted. What it might be I can't even guess. Maybe the reason is uniform to the entire Pacific Chart Supplement area.

I guess the follow up question to:
I can assure you that Guam Center would be less than happy if you started spinning around out there without telling them.
is "Would Guam Center give you a non-vectored approach clearance that brings you to WABOX?" Maybe there is some reason that they would not.
 
Referencing GUM

If you are coming into the approach straight in (ie from the east as you have described), then you will likely be established on the final prior to the IAF. The procedure turn exists to establish you on the final approach course so you would only use it coming in from the west unless you were being vectored to final or if for some reason you weren't established prior to the IAF coming in from the east). It is just like a VOR approach in that respect.


I don't think you are going to find anything that "quote-unquote" says that in the AIM or the FARs exactly, you do have to glean it.

I fly RNAV approaches in this fashion and I stand by it...I am a CFII and I teach it that way. I wouldn't be scared to defend myself to the FAA for it, but you have to make up your own mind. Plus, as someone stated, you may have some special OP SPEC that requires you to do so regardless (I find that hard to believe, personally, but I have heard/seen stranger things).
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess the follow up question to:is "Would Guam Center give you a non-vectored approach clearance that brings you to WABOX?" Maybe there is some reason that they would not.

They would and the do. I usually negotatiate a clearance that I'm more comfortable with (such as direct HAGIX), but you feel kind of silly when you see the 747's go direct WABOX then straight in.
 
It does seem strange. Especially that the feeder is not a NoPT segment. Really, it makes no sense at all for you to be able to fly NoPT with a 90° turn at CIBOL but not with an 11° turn when coming in on the feeder.

I've gotten curious enough to look at the FAA publications - some kind of an implied straight in area when coming in from the "correct" side of the T, but I've seen nothing that specifically takes it out of the general rule.
 
I'm going to take another stab at this one. AIM paragraph 5-4-9 b.3. (Procedure Turn): "When a holding pattern replaces a procedure turn, the holding pattern must be followed, except when radar vectoring is provided or when NoPT is shown on the approach course." It goes on, but that seems to address the question.
 
blimpguy said:
I'm going to take another stab at this one. AIM paragraph 5-4-9 b.3. (Procedure Turn): "When a holding pattern replaces a procedure turn, the holding pattern must be followed, except when radar vectoring is provided or when NoPT is shown on the approach course." It goes on, but that seems to address the question.

Never been vectored onto a GPS approach out here. You are in radar contact at GUM, and most of the way into ROP. They could do it if you asked, I suppose.

I doubt that the feds are going to come after your certificate either way. But it does seem that skipping the procedure turn, while common practice, is not technically correct unless radar vectors are provided or you come in on one of the two NoPT routes.

dhc8fo said:
I fly RNAV approaches in this fashion and I stand by it...I am a CFII and I teach it that way. I wouldn't be scared to defend myself to the FAA for it, but you have to make up your own mind.

I feel for you... but I'd be scared to defend myself about this. What would be your argument? I'm afraid common sense is not a legal argument. The AIM wording clearly indicates that you need "NoPT" to skip the PT.

Does anyone have any Jeppessen "Chart Clinic" articles that maybe address this?
 
I would reference the FARs definition of a procedure turn, as I stated....

Procedure turn means the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course.

Found in 14 CFR 97....97.3

If I don't need to reverse my direction because I am already established, then no turn for me.
 
dhc8fo said:
I would reference the FARs definition of a procedure turn, as I stated....

Procedure turn means the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course.

Found in 14 CFR 97....97.3

If I don't need to reverse my direction because I am already established, then no turn for me.
That answer doesn't work. The definition is nice, but it's the TERPS guys, not the pilot, who gets to decide "when it is necessary." It's one of those old arguments, but It's been fairly well established that "on course, on altitude and on airspeed" is =not= an exception to the general requirement for doing a depicted procedure turn. If the PT is there, you have to do it unless one of the three conditions in 91.175(j) is present.

Clearly, though, this PT is unnecessary and just makes no sense if coming in, so there has to be something else there
 
91.175(j) says that I have to be cleared to do a prcedure turn and that I can't if I am not....

So I am coming in from the east on this Guam approach when ATC clears me to the IAF and then clears me for the approach...unless they tell me that I am cleared for the procedure turn (in which case they would ask me to report established procedure turn inbound, which they wouldn't since I am already on final), I am NOT doing a PT.

Sorry, I stick to my guns on this one. You can pick apart the FARs all day long and find a piece here and there to justify a differing position on many issues.

I believe the intention of all approaches is some sort of cohesion and a high element of safety. What is safe about spinning in a PT, IMC, at night, when it isn't necessary or required because you are already established on the final course??
 
I agree the chart is silly but I won't argue with you about a regulation that has been clearly interpreted to require the PT in this situation. If you're interested in what FAA Legal has said about it, I'd be glad to post the opinion.

That aside, I was thinking that the "something else" was an "implied" TAA for the straight-in side of a basic T. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. The AIM discussion seems to negate that theory:

==============================
The published procedure will be annotated to indicate when the course reversal is not necessary when flying within a particular TAA area; e.g., "NoPT." Otherwise, the pilot is expected to execute the course reversal under the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.175. The pilot may elect to use the course reversal pattern when it is not required by the procedure, but must inform air traffic control and receive clearance to do so. (See FIG 5-4-1 and FIG 5-4-2). [AIM 5-4-5.d.2(b)]
==============================

But maybe there is something somewhere else.

The other possibility is, even though, it seems to be widespread, maybe it is, after all, just a charting error.
 
Yes, I am curious to read what you have about it. Maybe it will change my mind, but I doubt it (old and crusty in my ways and all).
 
dhc8fo said:
Yes, I am curious to read what you have about it. Maybe it will change my mind, but I doubt it (old and crusty in my ways and all).

==============================
Nov. 28, 1994
Mr. Tom Young, Chairman
Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 22070

Dear Mr. Young

This is a clarification of our response to your letter of August 23, 1993. In that letter you requested an interpretation of Section 91.175 of the Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.175). You address the necessity of executing a complete Standard Instrument Approach Procedure (SIAP) in a non-radar environment while operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR). Our response assumes that each of the specific scenarios you pose speaks to a flight conducted under IFR in a non-radar environment.

Section 91.175(a) provides that unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, when an instrument letdown to a civil airport is necessary, each person operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for the airport in Part 97.

First you ask whether an arriving aircraft must begin the SIAP at a published Initial Approach Fix (IAF). A pilot must begin a SIAP at the IAF as defined in Part 97. Descent gradients, communication, and obstruction clearance, as set forth in the U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Approach Procedures (TERPs), cannot be assured if the entire procedure is not flown.
You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a published IAF along a portion of the published arc. If a feeder route to an IAF is part of the published approach procedure, it is considered a mandatory part of the approach.

Finally, you ask whether a course reversal segment is optional "when one of the conditions of FAR section 91.175(j) is not present." Section 91.175(j) states that in the case of a radar vector to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an approach for which the procedures specifies "no procedure turn," no pilot may make a procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.

Section 97.3(p) defines a procedure turn, in part, as a maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on a intermediate or final approach course. A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present.

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491.

Sincerely,

/s/
Patricia R. Lane
for Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
==============================

Actualy goes bacl further than that. This one, under FAR91.116 (91.175 before a re-codification) said:

==============================
==============================

July 25, 1977

Robert E. Little, Jr., Esquire

Dear Mr. Little:

We have reviewed your letter dated April 28, 1977, in which you requested an interpretation concerning whether, when depicted on an approach chart, a procedure turn is required under all circumstances in executing an IFR approach or it is permissive and subject to the pilot's judgment as to the need for the maneuver. Our conclusion is essentially as discussed with you on the phone on May 17, 1977.

In your letter, you indicated that during the first leg of an IFR training flight from Tipton Army Air Field, Fort Meade, Maryland to Westminster Airport (EMI), you were radar vectored to Federal Airway V-265 and thereafter maintained an altitude of 3,000 feet. Approximately 4 miles south of Westminster VORTAC you obtained the following Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance:

"Army 295, radar service terminated 4 miles south of Westminster VOR, cleared for the VOR approach at Westminster, maintain 3000 feet until crossing the VOR."

You indicated that "for training purposes" you executed a procedure turn during the approach but concluded, after discussion with your instructor pilot, that the procedure turn was not required under the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs). You stated that you considered the following factors:

"(1) Our course was 11 to the right of the final approach course depicted on the plan view of the Westminster VOR Runway 36 approach;

(2) We were only 500 feet above the minimum procedure turn altitude; and

(3) We had approximately 4 minutes and 30 seconds to lose approximately 1500 feet at a rate of approximately 330 feet per minute after crossing the EMI VOR."

According to your letter, your subsequent research into the matter and inquiries of various FAA personnel into the correctness of your conclusion did not provide a satisfactory answer.

As you discovered, "procedure turn," as a symbol or term used in Part 97 of the FARs, is defined in Section 97.3(p) as follows:

"(p) Procedure Turn means the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course. The outbound course, direction of turn, distance within which the turn must be completed, and minimum altitude are specified in the procedures. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced, and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot." [Emphasis added]

Pertinent paragraphs of Section 91.116 "Takeoff and landing under IFR; General" provide as follows:

(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator (including ATC), each person operating an aircraft shall, when an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for that airport in Part 97 of this chapter.

(h) Limitations on procedure turns. In the case of a radar initial approach to a final approach fix or position, or a timed approach from a holding fix, or where the procedure specifies "NOPT" or "FINAL", no pilot may make a procedure turn unless, when he receives his final approach clearance, he so advises ATC.

Paragraph (a) of Section 91.75 "Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions" states in pertinent part as follows:

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance, except in an emergency, unless he obtains an amended clearance. ... If a pilot is uncertain of the meaning of an ATC clearance, he shall immediately request clarification from ATC."

Accordingly, under Section 91.116, Part 97 Standard Instrument Approach Procedures (SIAPs) are regulatory and, unless otherwise authorized (such as by an ATC clearance to the contrary), a pilot is required to execute an IFR approach in accordance with the SIAP prescribed in Part 97. As you know, the substance of SIAPs is reflected on "approach plates" or other flight information available for use in the cockpit.

Particular SIAPs may prescribe a procedure turn that is mandatory, permissive, or prohibited depending on the application of criteria contained in the U.S. Standards for Terminal Instrument Approach Procedures (TERPs). The TERPs are used by the FAA in developing SIAPs for particular regulatory approaches at particular airports. However, ATC may "authorize" a deviation from the prescribed procedure when it determines that a different approach procedure is appropriate. Accordingly, a pilot may request ATC for authorization to deviate from a prescribed procedure turn, if it is prescribed as mandatory or, if it is prescribed as permissive, he may request an approach clearance with or without the described procedure turn.

Thus, if you accepted the indicated ATC clearance, under the FARs, you were requested to maintain an altitude of 3000 feet on the inbound course until crossing the VOR and then to execute the prescribed (SIAP) VOR approach at Westminster. Since the (SIAP) VOR approach prescribes a mandatory procedure turn as part of that procedure, the procedure turn (as described) is required.

Further, please note that if a pilot is uncertain whether the IFR approach procedure for which he obtained ATC clearance requires or only permits a procedure turn, he is required under Section 91.75(a) to immediately request clarification from ATC.

You correctly noted that the discussion of procedure turns in Advisory Circular 90-1A is neither regulatory nor interpretive of the regulation. Advisory circulars, as their title suggests, are intended to provide information, suggestions and other guidance.

If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Sincerely,
NEIL R. EISNER
NEIL R. EISNER
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations & Enforcement Division
==============================

(BTW, the part that says that ATC can authorize not doing the PT was later ratracted)
 
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Nope, the letters you just provided only lead me to believe that I am right. If for some reason ATC cleared me from the east for the approach and told me to do a PT, I would question him and he would say "ooops, I mean cleared for the approach (NoPT) in which case I would fly straight in).

In this case, the PT won't happen from the east unless, as the FARs state, there is a reason (ie obstacle, etc, and then the plate will state the fact). On this approach, everything to the east side of all of the IAFs is for a direct entry into the approach and NoPT applies. If you are going to the IAF that is on the inbound course from the west (don't have that plate up anymore), then I would do the PT.
 
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Could one of you guys post a link to the plate in question? 99% of all GPS approaches I have flown have a NoPT associated with the TAA for that middle IF/IAF for the straight in area. I'm guessing this one doesn't.

For now, I'm with Dhc8FO on this one, if I am in a radar enviroment and cleared for the approach direct to ABCD IAF, then NoPT is assumed, ie radar vectors. If you were coming the other way ATC would more than likely clear you to one of the outer IAFs instead of the middle one.

But, I haven't seen the plate and all its little notes yet either. Plus, and excuse my ignorance, Guam is not governed my our FAR's but by ICAO rules and those can be a little tricky in different parts of the world.
 
dhc8fo said:
Nope, the letters you just provided only lead me to believe that I am right.
If you say so. Like I said, I won't argue over settled stuff. If you want to read " if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present."

and

==============================
The published procedure will be annotated to indicate when the course reversal is not necessary when flying within a particular TAA area; e.g., "NoPT." Otherwise, the pilot is expected to execute the course reversal under the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.175. The pilot may elect to use the course reversal pattern when it is not required by the procedure, but must inform air traffic control and receive clearance to do so. (See FIG 5-4-1 and FIG 5-4-2). [AIM 5-4-5.d.2(b)]
==============================

to mean something opposite to what the words say, that's okay with me.
 
Pgum

I'm sure someone with direct experience will chime in, but I am pretty sure Guam (US territory) is governed by the FAA. I have a friend that works with BOS FSDO and he occosionally heads to Guam to check up on Cape Air's 121 operation over there.
 
Geronimo4497 said:
I'm sure someone with direct experience will chime in, but I am pretty sure Guam (US territory) is governed by the FAA. I have a friend that works with BOS FSDO and he occosionally heads to Guam to check up on Cape Air's 121 operation over there.

Yup, the territory thing is the confusing part. If you read 91.1 (applicability) it refers to where you must abide by the parts in 91. It refers to "the coast of the United States and within the United States" it doesnt expand to include territories etc.

So I'll have to do some ICAO digging to see what it says about PT and straight in areas.
 
DC8 Flyer said:
Yup, the territory thing is the confusing part. If you read 91.1 (applicability) it refers to where you must abide by the parts in 91. It refers to "the coast of the United States and within the United States" it doesnt expand to include territories etc.

So I'll have to do some ICAO digging to see what it says about PT and straight in areas.

It's FAA airspace, and lies within it's own ADIZ. The airport is certified under FAR 139. Guam Center is staffed with FAA controllers. They're FAA approach plates. After I land I clear U.S. customs and immigration with my U.S. Passport. Don't think ICAO applies.
 
dhc8fo said:
Reference Section 5-4-5.7.D of the AIM where it defines TAAs:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#FIG%205-4-3

Particualarly Figures 5-4-7 and 5-4-12

Which if this approach HAD TAA's would be both interesting and relevant. However, this approach does NOT have TAA's, and so the information is of no interest and not relevant.

Got something else you'd like looked at?

When the approach is published with a TAA - and in due course I imagine it will be, then from the straight in sector you will probably be able to avoid the PT - until then - it's required.
 

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