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GPS Approach question

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dhc8fo said:
Yes, I am curious to read what you have about it. Maybe it will change my mind, but I doubt it (old and crusty in my ways and all).

==============================
Nov. 28, 1994
Mr. Tom Young, Chairman
Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 22070

Dear Mr. Young

This is a clarification of our response to your letter of August 23, 1993. In that letter you requested an interpretation of Section 91.175 of the Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.175). You address the necessity of executing a complete Standard Instrument Approach Procedure (SIAP) in a non-radar environment while operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR). Our response assumes that each of the specific scenarios you pose speaks to a flight conducted under IFR in a non-radar environment.

Section 91.175(a) provides that unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, when an instrument letdown to a civil airport is necessary, each person operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for the airport in Part 97.

First you ask whether an arriving aircraft must begin the SIAP at a published Initial Approach Fix (IAF). A pilot must begin a SIAP at the IAF as defined in Part 97. Descent gradients, communication, and obstruction clearance, as set forth in the U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Approach Procedures (TERPs), cannot be assured if the entire procedure is not flown.
You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a published IAF along a portion of the published arc. If a feeder route to an IAF is part of the published approach procedure, it is considered a mandatory part of the approach.

Finally, you ask whether a course reversal segment is optional "when one of the conditions of FAR section 91.175(j) is not present." Section 91.175(j) states that in the case of a radar vector to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an approach for which the procedures specifies "no procedure turn," no pilot may make a procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.

Section 97.3(p) defines a procedure turn, in part, as a maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on a intermediate or final approach course. A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present.

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491.

Sincerely,

/s/
Patricia R. Lane
for Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
==============================

Actualy goes bacl further than that. This one, under FAR91.116 (91.175 before a re-codification) said:

==============================
==============================

July 25, 1977

Robert E. Little, Jr., Esquire

Dear Mr. Little:

We have reviewed your letter dated April 28, 1977, in which you requested an interpretation concerning whether, when depicted on an approach chart, a procedure turn is required under all circumstances in executing an IFR approach or it is permissive and subject to the pilot's judgment as to the need for the maneuver. Our conclusion is essentially as discussed with you on the phone on May 17, 1977.

In your letter, you indicated that during the first leg of an IFR training flight from Tipton Army Air Field, Fort Meade, Maryland to Westminster Airport (EMI), you were radar vectored to Federal Airway V-265 and thereafter maintained an altitude of 3,000 feet. Approximately 4 miles south of Westminster VORTAC you obtained the following Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance:

"Army 295, radar service terminated 4 miles south of Westminster VOR, cleared for the VOR approach at Westminster, maintain 3000 feet until crossing the VOR."

You indicated that "for training purposes" you executed a procedure turn during the approach but concluded, after discussion with your instructor pilot, that the procedure turn was not required under the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs). You stated that you considered the following factors:

"(1) Our course was 11 to the right of the final approach course depicted on the plan view of the Westminster VOR Runway 36 approach;

(2) We were only 500 feet above the minimum procedure turn altitude; and

(3) We had approximately 4 minutes and 30 seconds to lose approximately 1500 feet at a rate of approximately 330 feet per minute after crossing the EMI VOR."

According to your letter, your subsequent research into the matter and inquiries of various FAA personnel into the correctness of your conclusion did not provide a satisfactory answer.

As you discovered, "procedure turn," as a symbol or term used in Part 97 of the FARs, is defined in Section 97.3(p) as follows:

"(p) Procedure Turn means the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course. The outbound course, direction of turn, distance within which the turn must be completed, and minimum altitude are specified in the procedures. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced, and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot." [Emphasis added]

Pertinent paragraphs of Section 91.116 "Takeoff and landing under IFR; General" provide as follows:

(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator (including ATC), each person operating an aircraft shall, when an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed for that airport in Part 97 of this chapter.

(h) Limitations on procedure turns. In the case of a radar initial approach to a final approach fix or position, or a timed approach from a holding fix, or where the procedure specifies "NOPT" or "FINAL", no pilot may make a procedure turn unless, when he receives his final approach clearance, he so advises ATC.

Paragraph (a) of Section 91.75 "Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions" states in pertinent part as follows:

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance, except in an emergency, unless he obtains an amended clearance. ... If a pilot is uncertain of the meaning of an ATC clearance, he shall immediately request clarification from ATC."

Accordingly, under Section 91.116, Part 97 Standard Instrument Approach Procedures (SIAPs) are regulatory and, unless otherwise authorized (such as by an ATC clearance to the contrary), a pilot is required to execute an IFR approach in accordance with the SIAP prescribed in Part 97. As you know, the substance of SIAPs is reflected on "approach plates" or other flight information available for use in the cockpit.

Particular SIAPs may prescribe a procedure turn that is mandatory, permissive, or prohibited depending on the application of criteria contained in the U.S. Standards for Terminal Instrument Approach Procedures (TERPs). The TERPs are used by the FAA in developing SIAPs for particular regulatory approaches at particular airports. However, ATC may "authorize" a deviation from the prescribed procedure when it determines that a different approach procedure is appropriate. Accordingly, a pilot may request ATC for authorization to deviate from a prescribed procedure turn, if it is prescribed as mandatory or, if it is prescribed as permissive, he may request an approach clearance with or without the described procedure turn.

Thus, if you accepted the indicated ATC clearance, under the FARs, you were requested to maintain an altitude of 3000 feet on the inbound course until crossing the VOR and then to execute the prescribed (SIAP) VOR approach at Westminster. Since the (SIAP) VOR approach prescribes a mandatory procedure turn as part of that procedure, the procedure turn (as described) is required.

Further, please note that if a pilot is uncertain whether the IFR approach procedure for which he obtained ATC clearance requires or only permits a procedure turn, he is required under Section 91.75(a) to immediately request clarification from ATC.

You correctly noted that the discussion of procedure turns in Advisory Circular 90-1A is neither regulatory nor interpretive of the regulation. Advisory circulars, as their title suggests, are intended to provide information, suggestions and other guidance.

If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Sincerely,
NEIL R. EISNER
NEIL R. EISNER
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations & Enforcement Division
==============================

(BTW, the part that says that ATC can authorize not doing the PT was later ratracted)
 
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Nope, the letters you just provided only lead me to believe that I am right. If for some reason ATC cleared me from the east for the approach and told me to do a PT, I would question him and he would say "ooops, I mean cleared for the approach (NoPT) in which case I would fly straight in).

In this case, the PT won't happen from the east unless, as the FARs state, there is a reason (ie obstacle, etc, and then the plate will state the fact). On this approach, everything to the east side of all of the IAFs is for a direct entry into the approach and NoPT applies. If you are going to the IAF that is on the inbound course from the west (don't have that plate up anymore), then I would do the PT.
 
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Could one of you guys post a link to the plate in question? 99% of all GPS approaches I have flown have a NoPT associated with the TAA for that middle IF/IAF for the straight in area. I'm guessing this one doesn't.

For now, I'm with Dhc8FO on this one, if I am in a radar enviroment and cleared for the approach direct to ABCD IAF, then NoPT is assumed, ie radar vectors. If you were coming the other way ATC would more than likely clear you to one of the outer IAFs instead of the middle one.

But, I haven't seen the plate and all its little notes yet either. Plus, and excuse my ignorance, Guam is not governed my our FAR's but by ICAO rules and those can be a little tricky in different parts of the world.
 
dhc8fo said:
Nope, the letters you just provided only lead me to believe that I am right.
If you say so. Like I said, I won't argue over settled stuff. If you want to read " if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present."

and

==============================
The published procedure will be annotated to indicate when the course reversal is not necessary when flying within a particular TAA area; e.g., "NoPT." Otherwise, the pilot is expected to execute the course reversal under the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.175. The pilot may elect to use the course reversal pattern when it is not required by the procedure, but must inform air traffic control and receive clearance to do so. (See FIG 5-4-1 and FIG 5-4-2). [AIM 5-4-5.d.2(b)]
==============================

to mean something opposite to what the words say, that's okay with me.
 
Pgum

I'm sure someone with direct experience will chime in, but I am pretty sure Guam (US territory) is governed by the FAA. I have a friend that works with BOS FSDO and he occosionally heads to Guam to check up on Cape Air's 121 operation over there.
 
Geronimo4497 said:
I'm sure someone with direct experience will chime in, but I am pretty sure Guam (US territory) is governed by the FAA. I have a friend that works with BOS FSDO and he occosionally heads to Guam to check up on Cape Air's 121 operation over there.

Yup, the territory thing is the confusing part. If you read 91.1 (applicability) it refers to where you must abide by the parts in 91. It refers to "the coast of the United States and within the United States" it doesnt expand to include territories etc.

So I'll have to do some ICAO digging to see what it says about PT and straight in areas.
 
DC8 Flyer said:
Yup, the territory thing is the confusing part. If you read 91.1 (applicability) it refers to where you must abide by the parts in 91. It refers to "the coast of the United States and within the United States" it doesnt expand to include territories etc.

So I'll have to do some ICAO digging to see what it says about PT and straight in areas.

It's FAA airspace, and lies within it's own ADIZ. The airport is certified under FAR 139. Guam Center is staffed with FAA controllers. They're FAA approach plates. After I land I clear U.S. customs and immigration with my U.S. Passport. Don't think ICAO applies.
 
dhc8fo said:
Reference Section 5-4-5.7.D of the AIM where it defines TAAs:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#FIG%205-4-3

Particualarly Figures 5-4-7 and 5-4-12

Which if this approach HAD TAA's would be both interesting and relevant. However, this approach does NOT have TAA's, and so the information is of no interest and not relevant.

Got something else you'd like looked at?

When the approach is published with a TAA - and in due course I imagine it will be, then from the straight in sector you will probably be able to avoid the PT - until then - it's required.
 
Stay tuned. I hear there's a NOTAM coming...
 
5-4-9

A procedure turn is not required when an approach can be made directly from a specified intermediate fix to the final approach fix. In such cases, the term "NoPT" is used with the appropriate course and altitude to denote that the procedure turn is not required...."

The IAF, CIBOL, is also the IF. If you are cleared direct to CIBOL from the east and can become established by CIBOL, then the above applies. This is what I have been referring to. You will not find "NoPT" next to any IAF that is in direct alignment with the FAF. That isn't how it works.


CFIse said:
Got something else you'd like looked at?

Since I am pretty much a professional, I will not comment to that statement as I would love to....except to say that you seem to be a bit of a smarta$$. I am willing to alter my perception with the right information and so far I haven't seen it. At this point, anything from a punk like you won't do much for me either so hopefully someone with a little more, shall we say, salt, will help me out if required.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Stay tuned. I hear there's a NOTAM coming...

Yeh - but it's not going to help this discussion to add NoPT to the transition route.

The advocates seem to believe that whereever they come from, if they can be "established" on something then they don't need to do a PT.

People believe what they believe - what can you do!
 
CFIse said:
The advocates seem to believe that whereever they come from, if they can be "established" on something then they don't need to do a PT
Not necessarily. Get past the obvious nonsense of saying things like
the term "NoPT" is used with the appropriate course and altitude to denote that the procedure turn is not required...."
to support the argument that if the term NoPT is =not= used the procedure turn is still not required.

dhc's point that
You will not find "NoPT" next to any IAF that is in direct alignment with the FAF.
is an interesting point. Not necessarily IAFs, but the concept that, TAA aside, if you are on a =published= approach segment that is aligned in direction and altitude with the final approach course (like the BAGBY feeder on the GUM 26L approach), you do not need to do a PT. It's pretty obvious that it =shouldn't= be needed.

The "charting error" idea doesn't completely convince me. The practice of leaving the "NoPT" off in cases of relatively direct alignment is pretty widespread. Take a look at this one: http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0508/05766V14.PDF VOR 14 at Broken Bow, NE, not exactly a hotbed of high traffic concentration. Yet we have a feeder route from BOKKI intersection aligned with the final approach course at PT-inbound altitude, but no "NoPT" noted.

~~~ Edit~~~
Ah. I'm wrong. The PT for the VOR =14= is needed. The approach assumes you don't have DME, so, even coming in on the feeder, the PT is there for altitude loss.

But the aligned/on altitude approach segment is still an interesting and logical one. Just nothing to support it. And a whole bunch that says the exact opposite.
~~~~~~~~~
 
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dhc8fo said:
5-4-9

You will not find "NoPT" next to any IAF that is in direct alignment with the FAF. That isn't how it works.

It's certainly true that you will find plenty of IAF's lined up with the FAF that don't have "NoPT". But do they also have procedure turns? If they don't, then of course you go straight in... if they DO, then the PT is required. I'm hoping someone else can come with more examples of approach charts like those out here. Otherwise, it does seem to be anomalous.
 
midlifeflyer said:
~~~ Edit~~~
Ah. I'm wrong. The PT for the VOR =14= is needed. The approach assumes you don't have DME, so, even coming in on the feeder, the PT is there for altitude loss.

Which raises another interesting point. The VOR 14 approach is made assuming you don't know your distance. Which is why, if you're radar vectored onto it, the controller always gives you your distance from the fix so you know you're legal and safe to descend (i.e. withing 10 nm). Then you can go straight in.

If you're not radar vectored you have to stay at 4400 until you cross the VOR, because presumably you don't really know where you are until that point. Many non-precision approaches are built this way.

But when you DO have DME information (but you're not radar vectored), you can be established on course, with full awareness of your position, but you still can't go straight in. The approach doesn't allow for it, as tempting as it may be. You would feel pretty stupid doing the procedure turn, but at least you can understand why it was designed that way. But presumably, if the approach was designated a VOR/DME approach then they would have allowed a straight in.

With GPS approaches, you ALWAYS know exactly where you are. You have the ability to "vector" yourself anywhere you want to go with perfect situational awareness. You don't need to cross the fix to establish your position and determine that you are safe to descend. If the approach is built properly, there should never be a need to execute a procedure turn (particularly one in which no altitude is lost or direction changed). But this is all "should be".
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not necessarily. Get past the obvious nonsense of saying things like to support the argument that if the term NoPT is =not= used the procedure turn is still not required.

Wow - you are obviously in need of an argument since you're now arguing with a person who supports your position.

midlifeflyer said:
dhc's point that is an interesting point.
[/QUOTE}

dhc's point is very worrying since the way he phrased his statement he appears to believe that NoPT is associated with an IAF, whereas it is actually associated with a route - a distinct difference.

midlifeflyer said:
It's pretty obvious that it =shouldn't= be needed.

I've never argued, and I don't think you have, that going straight in isn't perfectly safe. The question is - is it legal - and I don't believe it is based on the FAA's publications and the the letters of interpretation.

There are lots of things in aviation that are legal but not safe, and plety of things that are safe but not legal. In the end you have to strive to find things that are both legal and safe - but it's folly to believe they are the same thing.
 
ackattacker said:
It's certainly true that you will find plenty of IAF's lined up with the FAF that don't have "NoPT". But do they also have procedure turns? If they don't, then of course you go straight in... if they DO, then the PT is required. I'm hoping someone else can come with more examples of approach charts like those out here. Otherwise, it does seem to be anomalous.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0506/05187I35L.PDF

Coming from the south east or sout west I could easily Vector my self to this ILS. HISER is a Compass Locator and IGFK has DME. I still have to do the PT though, if Im not being radar vectored.
 
I'll chime in here on this one. Midlife is familiar with my take on the "when is a PT required" question. Everyone is missing the essential ingrediant. The AIM explains and describes a Procedure Turn with the opening statement: "A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final approach course." Look at that statement. Don't read anymore(yet). Is a course reversal necessary? No? Then why does everyone think it is always required whether you need it or not? The next sentence in the AIM (after *when necessary*) says: "The procedure turn is a required maneuver." THAT (I think) is what everyone sees as a stand alone statement. But it follows the definition of "when necessary".
That's how I see it. When a course reversal is necessary, the prescribed procedure turn as depicted shall be used.
Midlife's reprint of the legal opinion says nothing to me. It just quotes the above definitions. "When a course reversal is necessary, you shal use the prescribed maneuver". The legal opinion never specifically says, "You must do a PT even when you are established on the final approach course". Doesn't say that. It is in strict government legal speak which says nothing, but quotes the regulation.
The legal opinion will be on an individual case-by-case. Did you need to make a course reversal?
 
CFIse said:
Wow - you are obviously in need of an argument since you're now arguing with a person who supports your position.
Of course, you probably noticed that I ended up arguing with myself in that post. I should have deleted it instead of editing it.
:rolleyes:
 

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