Got the Shuttle America TA in my hand...

[Weasel Keeper]

If I worked there it would almost be worth it being unemployed just to know that management would be on the street as well.

If we go down, it's not only mgmt who's on the street. There are a lot more ground support folks who aren't mgmt...and coming from an average SA MX "Joe"...all of the mgmt isn't that bad. All of the non flight employees have taken concessions in the past year yet we're still dedicated to try and keep our little airline afloat. Try taking 10% from half of what a new FO makes and you have most of the ground support folks who took it and are still clinging on and giving 100%. The fact that aircrews are fighting what every other (non-flight) SA employee had to go through is the main thing that get's me slightly PO'd.

However...as an ex Teamster (FWA local 414), I must support your decisions. I've been there-done that. I also know that if the Teamsters say "you might want to consider the company's offer" that I might consider it. Fight the good fight, but be aware that as you may be searching for new jobs while unemployed...so are 200+ others...and it's not only the mgmt.

Best of luck to you...and us.

Cheers!

*edited* Make that: Best of luck to ALL of US...we're still on the same team.

 

[Gumby_dog]

I am a Shuttle America F.O. I feel that I am in a minority. Many of my F.O. collegues are quite content to vote yes. My reasons for voting no are simple..I will not be intimidated by a "furlough letter" My vote 3 weeks ago was NO, why are people changing their minds?THis TA is wrong.
When and if I go to future interviews, I think that the people on the other side of the desk are going to remember this day (I'm afraid that it will pass with an overwhelming YES)... My only possible recourse is the fact that I photocopied my NO vote, and will proudly explain why I would not be part of the "raping of the industry". One could argue that that last statement is a bit dramatic, but so be it.
I am sad at our lack of "brotherhood" but I do respect people's right to their own decisions. I will remain professional throughout.
Good luck to everyone. I will miss my friends who are leaving. I am sad to say that most of the people I love to fly with will soon all be gone.

 

[I.P. Freley]

>>>The fact that aircrews are fighting what every other (non-flight) SA employee had to go through is the main thing that get's me slightly PO'd.<<<

Because we wouldn't roll over and take it, is that what's got you "slightly PO'd"? Would you have taken that cut if you had a vote to NOT take it? I highly doubt it.

That half the pilot group, i.e.- the Captains, will have to take that cut... and take it for TWICE AS LONG AS YOU DID, MIND YOU... Is what has ME more than "slightly PO'd".

I'd say I am roughly twice as PO'd as you, for instance. Instead of 2/3 of the company taking a six-month pay cut, now we have 1/6 of the company taking a YEAR pay cut. How 'bout them apples??

Better still is that half the pilot group (the FO's) has a vote in cutting MY pay but face no pay cuts themselves, at least not until they upgrade. IF they upgrade.

Don't construe this as "the FO's need paycuts". I would argue that noone should have taken any paycuts at any time... Not the pilots, not the FA's, not the rampies, not MX, not crew scheduling, not anyone. Not at all. Not even a bit. Our outrageous pay is not the problem here.

There are other aspects of this that have me many times more PO'd than that, even. All will be revealed in good time.

And Gumby, if anyone ever asks you how you voted on a Shuttle TA in an interview, you can tell them to kiss your a**. That is not something they should ever ask and not a question I would ever lower myself to answer... Not to mention that it's probably illegal, though I can't back that up with any evidence.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Stand slightly down I.P. I don't really want to get into a pissin match because we are still on the same team...and I appreciate what you've said before in this post.

I never said:

Don't construe this as "the FO's need paycuts". I would argue that noone should have taken any paycuts at any time... Not the pilots, not the FA's, not the rampies, not MX, not crew scheduling, not anyone. Not at all. Not even a bit. Our outrageous pay is not the problem here

The only thing that has me PO'd is that everyone OTHER THAN flight crews HAVE taken a 10% paycut to help out the business. I would also argue that NO ONE should have taken pay cuts...but ALL of the non flight crew DID...and we are still supporting the flights professionally 100%. Sure we didn't have the Teamsters backing us, so it was more of a "take the 10% or take 100% pay cut" back then. We took it and "were" expecting to grow. Gee...Saabs going out by the end of the year means jets and better opportunity. Growth is good after the hard times eh? *shrugs*

When you mention we took it in the end for 10% at only 6 months (half the time)...consider how many rampies or other support crews making $8.00- $13.00 an hour would hang around longer than 6 months at this rate. How 'bout them apples??? Surprisingly, most of them are still here after making less than McDonald's wages for that 6 months...and they are STILL supporting operations and getting your flights out on time over 97% of the time. Like it or not, there's a reason SA is still the #1 US Airways Express regional carrier...and it's not 100% about you only. You don't go anywhere without the dedicated low paid professional non flight support folks behind the scenes.

And like I said before, I still support your vote whichever way it goes since I was a Teamster and am still on your team. And I still say and mean "have a nice day" at the FWA terminal when you're heading for your acft in the morning...so look at me and say "good day" back instead of hanging your head (not meant for just you I.P. ). We may be in a dire situation, but we are still on the same team.

Cheers!

*disclaimer*
I don't speak for every SA ground support folks, these are just my opinions.

 

[tango uniform]

My feelings about the ramp personnel in PIT are best left unrecorded, however.

Yeah, but they're not Shuttle! (I dont know WHAT they are [thinking] )

My vote is noone's business other than my own.

Amen. Whip-smack anyone who asks. This is about what YOU think is best for YOU.

All of the non flight employees have taken concessions in the past year yet we're still dedicated to try and keep our little airline afloat. Try taking 10% from half of what a new FO makes and you have most of the ground support folks who took it and are still clinging on and giving 100%. The fact that aircrews are fighting what every other (non-flight) SA employee had to go through is the main thing that get's me slightly PO'd.

WHOA--BS alert. The other non-contract employees were FORCED to take the pay cuts. When a homeless man pulls a knife and takes your wallet, you did not make a donation to charity. Let's not be too proud of that which was foisted upon us.

but be aware that as you may be searching for new jobs while unemployed...so are 200+ others...and it's not only the mgmt.

Even the most heartless among us is not blind to this fact. But brother, warm fuzzy feelings won't pay my rent. I am going to be flying airplanes for a while, here or somewhere else. This TA is not happening in a vacuum. What happens here will affect me for years to come.

Second, I don't think that 100 derelects flying 30 seat p.o.s. are going to have an outcome on 777 pay at UAL. And the big boys should just look in the mirror, there is no way in hell they should have allowed any "commuter" airline to fly 50, 70, or 90 seat jets in the first place!

Easy, son. The only bums here are mgmt and myself. Careful who you paint with that brush. As to the RJs, I couldn't agree more. But I don't see DALPA stuffing that genie back in the bottle so let's move on...neither you nor I made that fateful decision.

consider how many rampies or other support crews making $8.00- $13.00 an hour would hang around longer than 6 months at this rate. How 'bout them apples???

More like Apples to Oranges. Pilot's only receive FLIGHT PAY--that means 75 hours per month, or 46.875% of the remunerable hours compared to the other employees. If you'd like an hourly figure, a first year FO with concessions would make $9.80 for a 160 hour "regular joe" month, before taxes. Only while the engines are turning. NOT between flights. NOT the hour before the flights we are required to be on-duty. NOT while sitting in the hotel in lovely Charlie West away from your family for 20+ days per month. Wow. And with a four year college degree, specialized training, and years of experience. Living like phat rats, huh? LEARN what you are talking about if you want to criticize our pay.

If you want a scandal, consider what we pay the FAs--same flight-hourly structure, less pay and the 10% pay cut. No wonder it has been a revolving door--they are paid below the federal poverty line! Of course, the costs of hiring, training and investigating replacement FAs was far more that the pay savings--another fine example of leadership from above. Lubricate the machine with the blood of your workers.

You don't go anywhere without the dedicated low paid professional non flight support folks behind the scenes

...and I thank them and would like to see THEM paid more as well. But that isn't the issue. We are talking about our pay for our jobs. If we are all in the spirit of Christian Communalism, can my kids come over to eat Sunday dinner at your house? I'd hate feeding them ramen noodles 7 times a week. Then can you help with my rent? No? Guess this brotherhood thing has limits for you too, huh?

Better still is that half the pilot group (the FO's) has a vote in cutting MY pay but face no pay cuts themselves, at least not until they upgrade. IF they upgrade

Very true. Instill fear, divide and conquer. But for what? Upgrades on a dwindling fleet?

and coming from an average SA MX "Joe"...all of the mgmt isn't that bad

Guess your managers aren't availing themselves of free "training" to pad their resumes for their next job while crying doom and gloom.....

(airwoman? even your gender is an enigma)

An enigma wrapped in a riddle covered in mystery...and a crispy chocolatey shell!

Add fries and a drink for only a dollar more!

 

[godsgift2aviatn]

Here's my take on the whole matter:

I believe that management is not bluffing, I believe that a no vote would cause the doors at SA to shut. Does it make sense to me? Not at all.
I believe there is no future for SA. I believe SA is on life support and the clock
is ticking.

I hear a lot of people grumbling something about lowering the bar. Keep in mind this is a temporary pay cut affecting only half of the pilot group. I didn't hear any grumbling on this board when the majors took their pay cuts, and for a lot longer than our 12 months.

So the question were faced with here is: Do I vote NO and walk the streets looking for a new job? Or do I vote YES and look for a job while still gainfully employed? The problem is that SA's flying can be replaced quickly. Were not CHQ whom actually had some leverage behind their strike vote. Choose your battles folks dont let pride get in the way of common sense.

 

[metro301]

huhhh!

"Failed to find other work? Well, I did (foolishly) send a resume to CHQ at the onset of this silliness. See, I am one of the "urban legends" whose disloyalty to the Wexford Reich was reported back to our leaders."

Stop Wexford, as you can see, once again I have taken a break from elevating my BAC and polishing my new Harley, in order to surf the net and ask you a question. Could you please provide details for the above statement? The fact is and always has been, that everyone is free to search for work wherever they wish.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Metro301, if you believe that airline management isn't above such "loyality tests" you're sadly mistaken. How much time do you have? There are more stories than daylight.

One question for everyone, we were told that we couldn't secure pref hiring for SA people because they didn't work for RAH and "weren't part of the same company." However, in the SA TA, voting no means a lifetime ban from CHQ/RAH (probably illegal, IMHO.) How can both of these facts be true at once? If so, wouldn't that be the beginning of a single carrier issue?

I just wish Wexford would expend half the energy that they spend trying to make us fearful on trying to make us somewhat more happy. But it's better to be feared than loved, right?

And tango uniform, it would be a pleasure to share a flightdeck with you and all the other SA pilots. You're the bit players on another aviation travesty. Involving USAir, no less.

Cue the circus music, maestro!

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

Reality Check

Ladies and Gentlemen:

There is one thing that you are missing. The reason why SA is in business is so that CHQ doesn't loose a BUNCH of money on the Saab leases. It doesn't matter if the vote is for or against the TA in 18 months the leases are done and SA will cease to exist. Vote yes or no it DOESN'T matter... eventually this company will no longer exist.

I think that the FOs out there need to think about what they would do if they were a Captain right now. Would you wanna give up 10% of your salary? I sure wouldn't.

As for SA ground crews being peeved at pilots for not accepting a 10% pay cut .. just remember that you get set days off, can be home with your family every night, and many other things that you probably take for granted. I know your rebuttal will be "you decided to be a pilot" but a person can only take so much junior manning and extending. Thats where I think the pilot group gives their 10% .. the quality of life at SA is VERY POOR!

Just my $.02

 

[JohnDoe]

Call me crazy........but if the company needs 10% paycuts from the captains only in order to remain open and survive........the company is NOT going to survive.

 

[tango uniform]

but if the company needs 10% paycuts from the captains only in order to remain open and survive........the company is NOT going to survive

Bingo.

Vote yes or no it DOESN'T matter... eventually this company will no longer exist

Bingo.

How can both of these facts be true at once? If so, wouldn't that be the beginning of a single carrier issue?

Bingo. Or so it was thought when we were perceived as a whipsaw threat.

I have taken a break from elevating my BAC and polishing my new Harley, in order to surf the net

But do you do the first two on company time? Just as long as you don't stat wearing chaps to work.

Metro301, if you believe that airline management isn't above such "loyality tests" you're sadly mistaken. How much time do you have? There are more stories than daylight.

Metro301 IS management. Directly above me in the chain-of-command.

the quality of life at SA is VERY POOR

But only until October 27th!

 

[I.P. Freley]

Weasel...

For the record, I was venting at the situation, not at YOU. I apologize to you if you took it any other way. If you re-read it hopefully you will see that what I was saying really was no reflection on your being PO'd, but just illustrating how PO'd I am.

 

[NoName]

What changed from the first concession vote to this one? How was shuttle able to lessen the amounts of concessions..what changed??

 

[tango uniform]

What changed from the first concession vote to this one? How was shuttle able to lessen the amounts of concessions..what changed??

The pilots' resolve.

or so they hope.

 

[tango uniform]

well, it's 2000lcl here in the land of snow and hot wings--the votes should all be in FDX drop boxes on their way back, so ranting is now moot (for this vote at least)

any predictions on how it will go?

I am betting, sadly, that it will pass. Divide and Conquer 101 wins again.

 

[tiktak]

An operating airline is a valuable entity.
A shut down airline is worth nothing.
Wexford is bleeding money into the company.
Ok.

If he shuts down, the investors loss will be by far greater.

Just to keep the certificate alive
3 mgmt people, 1 AC an office, one run a week.
Can be FWT to Jones town.


To make it work we need turbofans.
Same cost/h 2x speed and 2x pax.

Stand your ground.
Call the Bluff

 

[newshooterxprss]

I.P. Freley has finally said and mentioned what has been missing in these posts for a long time. The employees at Shuttle are, and always have been an unbelievable group that has sacrificed time and time again since 1998. It's been very few days since 1998 that some of the original "shooters" can remember and look back on that hasn't gone without a doubt or a sacrifice to make the "plan" work. As an original guy from the early Dash group that never made it to the Wexford camp, it pains me to see some of the original "bruthas" stick this out and through again. Those who have been with Shuttle since the beginning deserve many a rounds of beer for the sacrafices that have had to been made to keep Shuttle America alive, despite decisions made by "Hollywood" against the voices on the line. The integrity of those individuals is incredible and hold but only my highest reguards. For those who never knew the Shuttle of olden day, you will know that it brought with it after Wxford came along a very strong spirit and family of people that many airlines could only dream of having, it rivals that of even "Herbs Boys and Girls". The employees at Shuttle America have always been and will always be one of the tightest knit groups that any airline will ever see. Day in and day out people have always worked and sacrificed blood, sweat and tears to succeed even in the face of failure or uncertainty. What Wexford is oblivious to and will never comprehend (sadly enough), is that they not only bought a certificate, and group of people to structure an airline, they adopted a culture, a family of people, and most importantly a spirit that is absultely unique and can not be killed. From the days of the "Christmas Parties" in BUF to the large group that makes up SA today, no matter what comes of the future or where your career may bring you, always remember one thing that still holds true in my own heart today...You can kick the Shuttle person to the curb, but you can NEVER take the Shuttle out the person. To all that have fought the battles, continue to fight the war, especially my new-hire classmate (Hello Govenor) who leads the troops today, I wish you all the luck and perserverance that has kept Shuttle a living, breathing thing that it continues to be today. When and if the time shall come and the decision is made by those given the power to do so, and the life support systems are taken away, the physical being of Shuttle may be no more, however the spirit and soul of those who have sacraficed so much and given so much of themselves shall always live on in each and evey one of us...Keep your heads held up high....

There was once a bumper sticker that existed, some may remember. It has never proved to be more true...

"The Few, The Proud, The Shuttle Americans"

All my best to everyone in the days ahead,

Foxtrot Oscar.

 

[crewguru]

vote

Has anyone heard how the vote went? Just curious.

 

[saab340]

It pass by how many I do not know

 

[crewguru]

Just heard it passed