Good or bad career move??

[Donsa320]

Thanks for all your comments. Here is what I have come to (as of today) regarding this decision. The owner is willing to pay a per-diem, of which time I might or might-not log (more on this later). This also dances around any sort of contract that a salary might bring. Basically, if I think it is a good opportunity after some flights, I'll keep at it (maybe meet some good contacts). Otherwise, I just say a polite thank you and move on.

Outside of this, I'll keep slugging it out instructing.

Now then for the logging ability. One thing I failed to mention was that the chief pilot was an ATP. I first thought that this didn't matter, but was referred to 61.167 b1 (ATP privileges). Under this part:

an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given.​

So is this a loophole in the logging ability?

Thanks again

I'll stick my neck out and say...no. You said you are going to be under Part 91....but that is not in air transportation service. That would have be 121 or 135 I believe.
DC

 

[minitour]

I'll stick my neck out and say...no. You said you are going to be under Part 91....but that is not in air transportation service. That would have be 121 or 135 I believe.
DC

Yep...you believe correctly.

-mini

 

[MTpilot]

If they won't give you a type, it's worthless time, don't bother. Dual given in a 150 is worth a lot more than "additional crew" time. Demand a type. Good luck.

 

[501261]

Now then for the logging ability. One thing I failed to mention was that the chief pilot was an ATP. I first thought that this didn't matter, but was referred to 61.167 b1 (ATP privileges). Under this part:

an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given.​

So is this a loophole in the logging ability?

Thanks again

Are you flying under 135 or 121? Is he an "authorized instructor" for that certificate and are you training under that certificate's training program?

Unfortunately you're probably out of luck. Get a ride in the 350 when you have a day off otherwise, have him type you or get another "real" job.

 

[Lead Sled]

Are you flying under 135 or 121? Is he an "authorized instructor" for that certificate and are you training under that certificate's training program?

Unfortunately you're probably out of luck. Get a ride in the 350 when you have a day off otherwise, have him type you or get another "real" job.

You hit the nail square on the head. A ride or two will give him everything benefit he'll ever get out of that opportunity - unless, of course they give him a type. However, please don't fall for it if they put a "carrot" out in front of you - "Come to work for us now and we'll send you to school sometime..." Yeah right, like Dr. Laura says, you need a ring and a date.

'Sled

 

[Say Again Over]

I would recommend staying there and log the multi-engine tubine time, PIC has always been a grey area.

 

[some_dude]

One comment about your otherwise excellent post: if the owner is unable to find anyone acceptable to take the job without a type, then the type would not be a waste of money.

And, given the fact that the time is not loggable, I would guess that it would be a fairly difficult position to fill, without either paying well or providing a type rating.

Several posters asked why the owner doesn't type. I don't know the owner, and can only speak in generalities...a type rating is expensive. The SIC in this case isn't a required SIC but by the whim of the owner or operator. A type doesn't make someone safer, only legal to act as PIC. One can gain perfectly good training to act in the limited capacity as unnecessary SIC without the expense of adding a type. Owing to the lack of experience, if the position isn't upgradable, then the type would likely be a waste of money for the operator.

 

[TankerDriver]

As good of experience the position may provide, it doesn't look like you're going to be able to prove your experience in the logbook. Tough decision, but I'd probably keep to the CFII job.

 

[avbug]

Now then for the logging ability. One thing I failed to mention was that the chief pilot was an ATP. I first thought that this didn't matter, but was referred to 61.167 b1 (ATP privileges). Under this part:

an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given.​

As your operation is Part 91, and you're not being instructed in air transportation service, this isn't the "loophole," for which you might hope. Again however, trying to get someone to continuously sign off the flight time as "dual" in order for you to stick it in your logbook would be a questionable and ridiculous practice. Just how much king air training do you need? Further...many employers deduct training time from your totals when considering your experience...the time could count against you anyway.

You need to be able to log SIC or PIC. If it's a single pilot aircraft being flown by a pilot with a single pilot waiver and you have no type, in a Part 91 operation, what exactly could you log? Passenger time?

if the owner is unable to find anyone acceptable to take the job without a type, then the type would not be a waste of money.

And the problem with that is that the owner will always be able to find someone to fill the seat. Filling the seat isn't a requirement, it's a luxury, and therefore spending twelve grand to fill that seat with someone who isn't upgradeable is a poor investment, and generally, an unlikely one.

Then again, the fact that the operator is flying a 350 is a good indication that the operator isn't the brightest or most experienced...they could have had a lot more airplane for a lot less money.

I would recommend staying there and log the multi-engine tubine time, PIC has always been a grey area.

Really? How exactly would you recommend he logs the time?

PIC is a grey area? To whom? To you? It's very, very clear cut. What part do you not understand?

Are you flying under 135 or 121?

OK, I need some help here. I'm currently a CFI and have recently been offered a co-pilot position. The plane I would be co-piloting is a King Air 350 operated under part 91.

 

[F16fixer]

This was me 12 months ago!

Tell them thanks, but no thanks.

I had this same situation happen to me last year around Dec. I was in a rut and wanted to move on. I took a job as a radio mongler in the B200. It was the companies first airplane. They wanted two pilots. I had stars in my eyes and tried to think of any possble way to log the time. The same people that helped me are helping you. I don't think I would believe much of what skyline says after reading his comments, but anyway. The CP was an ATP as well. I had the same idea as you did. IT IS NOT LEGAL.
I guess I could move on to the point of this story. After 6 months of sleeping in hotels on four day trips and thinking about the time I could have been logging if I was teaching, I knew it was time to move on. I was able to log the time I did fly as PIC sole-manipulator, you are not. I only got to log about a quarter of the time since the CP was a ball hog. (that's a whole other story though)
Do you think they are going to let you fly a multi-million dollar airplane that you are not insured under? These corp guys are tight. He probably wouldn't even borrow you his BMW to go to the grocery store. If you screwed up the plane and someone found out you were flying it, it would be the same as one of the passengers flying. Oh, by the way, that's all you are is a passenger on the books and to the FAA. You will here this one a hundred times if you take the job. Makes you feel real good!!!!!!!!

The other side of the fence:
I put in my two weeks, found my own replacement, and was ready to move on. I'm a likeable guy, I adapt well in the cockpit, and I got along with all the employees and the owner, who was always taking me out to eat and buying drinks on the overnights.
When they found out I was quitting, they were willing to send me to the B200 initial school and offered me a salary which would keep me in the same living conditions I'm in now (not good). I still left because I knew that the insurance that they used wouldn't except me even with the school. I went back to teaching and opened up more paths and couldn't be happier with my decsion 5 months later.

It was a fun experience and if you do it, don't stick around more than 6 months or your just wasting time.

Hope this helps,

Someone who's been there

 

[aviator1978]

thanks f16fixer,

After weighing it all, I come to the conclusion to keep slugging it out as a CFI.

Thanks again

 

[some_dude]

I don't know, the 800 hour CFI who started this thread passed on it, who do you think would take it?

I wouldn't count on him being able to fill the seat at all, given the situation. Then it comes down to how badly the owner wants two pilots. If he wants a second pilot badly enough, he'll either have to pay more or pay to type someone.

And the problem with that is that the owner will always be able to find someone to fill the seat. Filling the seat isn't a requirement, it's a luxury, and therefore spending twelve grand to fill that seat with someone who isn't upgradeable is a poor investment, and generally, an unlikely one.

 

[BushwickBill]

You hit the nail square on the head. A ride or two will give him everything benefit he'll ever get out of that opportunity - unless, of course they give him a type. However, please don't fall for it if they put a "carrot" out in front of you - "Come to work for us now and we'll send you to school sometime..." Yeah right, like Dr. Laura says, you need a ring and a date.

'Sled

Same thing happend to me in the CJ1. I was able to log the time under 61.55(b). However, the CP and the other pilot both said I was required to get a type rating after 6 months by the insurance. When the yonger pilot sent in an application to Cathay - I thought I was all set. I turned my back on a lot of students that were paying me good money to be a radio monkey/ gear handle actuator for 15 lousy bucks an hour (not just flight hours). I was hoping I'd be salaried and typed in 6 months. I was also flying with them so much that the 15 bucks an hour started to add up.

Now they haven't flown me in about 3 weeks. I'm still going to fly with them a little next month but I'm not going to give up on instructing. I really had to scramble to get students back to keep my income flowning. I'm only going to fly with them if I dont have a student. I spent eight hours mopping up the company hangar just to make rent this month.

Also they changed insurance underwriters. The new insurance does not requre a type rating for the right seat guy. So do you think the rich guys will spend an extra 14k getting "Jr" a type rating? Nope. So now I'll have a bunch of SIC hours in an airplane I dont have a type for.

Fly with them if you can but dont give up on logable hours and hard earned money. If they call you last minute to fly and you have students lined up. Tell them "sorry, I'd like to but I have other commitments".

If they really value you and your time they will help you out. Although, you wont be able to be the PIC in that airplane under the insurance until you have at least ATP minimums. So between being rich and implusive rich people wont help you. Your just sacrificing for them.