good article on Repulic and its road ahead

[get2flyin]

The irony here is that you could replace republic with airtran/valujet and have made the same argument not so long ago. Airtran, LUV, Jetblue etc. have had a devastating impact on major airline pilot wages over the past two decades. Now they are the saviors? The irony!

I disagree. The difference between those other post-deregulation up starts was they competed by offering a superior customer experience against legacy carriers flying similar aircraft. We're not talking "Skybus" who just tried to make it on "cheap" and failed. Take a look at the early days of SWA, giving free booze to business travelers or JetBlue offering free TV. What does Republic offer that sets them apart?

 

[800Dog]

I disagree. The difference between those other post-deregulation up starts was they competed by offering a superior customer experience against legacy carriers flying similar aircraft. We're not talking "Skybus" who just tried to make it on "cheap" and failed. Take a look at the early days of SWA, giving free booze to business travelers or JetBlue offering free TV. What does Republic offer that sets them apart?

That is certainly another way to look at it. The similarity is that Republic pilots are undercutting Airtran, JetBlue etc with lower wages and benefits. Similar to what LUV, Airtran, JetBlue etc. did to the majors.

 

[800Dog]

Competition's a b!tch-

But this isn't a what came first- the chicken or the egg scenario. Major airlines allowed outsourcing to get out of control- and now that decision is coming back to haunt you. Big surprise. No major has been hiring due to outsourcing the majors allowed- keep that flying in house and the requirements would have been adjusted to fill classes.

Blame the kids all you want- but it still begins with major airline pilots negotiating away flying.

Completely agree with you. I cannot put into words how disappointed I have been with the majority of pilots at Delta who have voted yes on contract after contract that has farmed away more and more flying. I have and will continue to vote no on any TA that does not adequately address scope. Delta passengers should be flown by Delta pilots period....

 

[RobCat]

Once again. Pilots should stick to cockpits and airplanes. You are trained on how to operate aircraft (half of us can barely do that) not to make business decisions. This site is embarassing to our prof. as a whole. I can see why we are treated and paid the way we are. Long ago pilots where successful men that were accomplished, now we have a bunch of one dimentional pissy babies that are accomplished on finding a Glime and getting gouges.

 

[27 driver]

The irony here is that you could replace republic with airtran/valujet and have made the same argument not so long ago. Airtran, LUV, Jetblue etc. have had a devastating impact on major airline pilot wages over the past two decades. Now they are the saviors? The irony!

Dude, Airtran Captains make the same as their counterparts at DAL flying the MD 80. FO's are a different story.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Dude, Airtran Captains make the same as their counterparts at DAL flying the MD 80. FO's are a different story.

Which is where it ends because a majority of those Captain jobs pay better on bigger aircraft.....

The company loves making these comparisons to Airtran wages and then say we make more because we fly bigger planes.....which is crap....

 

[Lear70]

Dude, Airtran Captains make the same as their counterparts at DAL flying the MD 80. FO's are a different story.

And many Southwest F/O's make more than AirTran CAPTAINS in the same longevity. Doesn't really matter in the Scope argument, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't arguing that AirTran pilots are adequately compensated...

Scope is the answer. Don't allow ANY of your flying to be farmed out. Bind the holding company. Write dozens of examples of what "outsourcing" is so that it can't be masked under a "codeshare" or "unique operating agreement".

By the way, it's "Gleim", not "Glime", last time I checked (haven't opened one in about 10 years).

 

[Propsync]

I don't blame the pilots at all. Frankly, I think airlines would be better off if they did ALL the flying in-house. Start on a turbo-prop and retire on the wide body.

What's you opinion of Frontier? Bedford even said that company would be successful if they where left alone.

I cut your post down so I won't take a whole page. What you think should have happened and what is happening is two vastly different things. What has happened is management has ALL of the pilots in the OWNED column. Until that gets reversed, this profession will never advance. Pilots pointing fingers at each other only cements OWNED column status. More troubles are no orders of narrow-body or larger, large amounts of furloughs, and age 65 really has set this career back.

At this point the so-called bottom feeders are so intertwined with the majors, there's no turning back. Anybody with 70 seats is integral to the mainline operation. Wishing harm is the same as wishing the mainline connected to go as well. Back to square one.

I have no opinion on Frontier. I am technically out of the industry withholding my services. If things were to improve where my value was recognized, and I see real stability (don't laugh at once everyone) I'd get back in. The trouble I see is when those jobs actually come available, I will be so far out of currency and so many fewer hours I won't be considered.

You can all say I didn't fight hard enough, chased enough aluminum to keep me almost dead or certificate-less, or just wasn't lucky. I think I got out at the right time, but only time will tell.

Just for the record, management put Skyway and Midwest pilots on the street, not the pilots of Skywest or Republic.

 

[maru657]

"...Frankly, I think airlines would be better off if they did ALL the flying in-house. Start on a turbo-prop and retire on the wide body."

Ironicly, that's exactly what the origional Frontier was doing back in the late 70's, when they operated their own small fleet of three Twin Otters on short-haul routes and fed their Denver hub. Some new hires went to the Otter, others to the Convair.

Southern Airways also operated a rather large fleet of 15+ Metro II's during the 70's, flown by their pilots, and fed their ATL hub.

Piedmont Airlines flew the F-28 using mainline pilots during the mid-80's, doing hub flying as well as point to point service to many places, including an intra-Florida shuttle.

Almost exactly correct. In fact Frontier initially started operating the twin otters as a seperate entity. The MEC at Frontier then hired pickiters to protest the safety angle in front of Frontier ticket counters. This forced Frontier management to bring the Otter pilots in house with seniority. In order for this to work today, I suspect we would need some form of re-regulation mandating this system wide.

 

[Lear70]

In order for this to work today, I suspect we would need some form of re-regulation mandating this system wide.

Correct.

Deregulation was the ultimate cause of all this. With mainline pilots selling out Scope a close 2nd.

And I disagree with Propsync. Until pilots stop undercutting each other for the job, this won't stop until there is an outside force on the marketplace to artificially restrict the number of qualified pilots (ATP requirement for all new-hire F/O's, etc).

It will be interesting in about 10 years or so, when all the furloughed pilots from various carriers (including the closed ones) are hired somewhere, the majors have to replace retiring pilots (normal attrition) and pick off the top of the regionals again, and then the regionals need new, warm bodies in the right seat of those 70 and 90 seaters, and the ATP requirement is firmly in place, so the available pilot pool is virtually nonexistent (with the publicity that pilot wages have seen lately, I'd be surprised to see flight school new entrants pick up anytime soon).

That will be the first time in half a century we will truly have had a "pilot shortage". If ALPA, CAPA, and everyone else can get the law held firmly in place without starting some type of ab-initio program, it will be crunch time for airline executives.

I've all but given up on the idea of re-regulation, although it's the ONLY thing that's going to stop this repeated bankruptcy cycle airlines keep getting to jump through to dump all their obligations and start over again. That's $$ BILLIONS in new, Federal spending that the public will have to eat in terms of increased taxes, and woe to the White House Administration that has the cajones to try to push that one through.

Time will tell...