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FAA Order 8700.1 Volume II, Chapter 13, Paragraph 5(e)(e)(a) provides the requirements for issuance of a gold seal certificate.
You must recommend at least 10 applicants. You may recommend more. However, you must have at a minimum an 80% pass rate among your applicants.
If you happen to be an examiner, you may credit two examinations given for one student recommended.
Thus, it isn't eight out of ten total, but 80% of the applicants you recommend for a practical test for a certificate or rating. Note also that this isn't total pass rate, but passed on the first attempt.
You must recommend at least 10 applicants. You may recommend more. However, you must have at a minimum an 80% pass rate among your applicants.
If you happen to be an examiner, you may credit two examinations given for one student recommended.
Thus, it isn't eight out of ten total, but 80% of the applicants you recommend for a practical test for a certificate or rating. Note also that this isn't total pass rate, but passed on the first attempt.
Thanks for the reply, I'm wondering if in theory I could have a total of 10 out of 100 students passing on their first try, but use only that ten which passed for evidence of my record and claim 100%?
I'm doing good so far, but the way it was worded where I read it made it seem that anyone once they finally pass 8 guys on their first try can get a gold seal regardless of their previouse record (as long as they have two more students they endorsed, to make the total sample the required 10)
I'm doing good so far, but the way it was worded where I read it made it seem that anyone once they finally pass 8 guys on their first try can get a gold seal regardless of their previouse record (as long as they have two more students they endorsed, to make the total sample the required 10)
Ten is the minimum total number of students. You must have an 80% pass rate. If you have ten recommended applicants, you must have 8 pass.
If you have 100 recommended applicants, you must have 80 of those pass.
The total number of recommended applicants is measured over the previous 24 months.
You may not select a group of ten applicants and exclude the other recommendations. You must have a 80% pass rate among all whom you recommend for a certificate or rating.
If you have 100 recommended applicants, you must have 80 of those pass.
The total number of recommended applicants is measured over the previous 24 months.
You may not select a group of ten applicants and exclude the other recommendations. You must have a 80% pass rate among all whom you recommend for a certificate or rating.
You are not held responsible for the actions of another instructor. You are held responsible for your own.
Regardless of weather an applicant has failed before, you are responsible if you endorse that applicant for a practical test. If the applicant fails when you have endorsed him or her, then you are responsible.
Generally speaking, a failure of a student here or there will happen, and it's not going to hurt you. If 30% or more fail, you will be placed under "surveilance." The FAA takes a special interest in you, and you will be watched, pending enforcement action to revoke your certificate.
Be aware that this can affect not only your instructor certificate, but also your pilot certificate. Certificate action isn't against one or the other, it's against the individual that holds them.
It is a given that individuals will fail from time to time. Despite your best efforts, this will occur. The Administrator understands this. For this reason, you are not required to show a 100% pass rate. 80% is a reasonable minimum standard.
Regardless of weather an applicant has failed before, you are responsible if you endorse that applicant for a practical test. If the applicant fails when you have endorsed him or her, then you are responsible.
Generally speaking, a failure of a student here or there will happen, and it's not going to hurt you. If 30% or more fail, you will be placed under "surveilance." The FAA takes a special interest in you, and you will be watched, pending enforcement action to revoke your certificate.
Be aware that this can affect not only your instructor certificate, but also your pilot certificate. Certificate action isn't against one or the other, it's against the individual that holds them.
It is a given that individuals will fail from time to time. Despite your best efforts, this will occur. The Administrator understands this. For this reason, you are not required to show a 100% pass rate. 80% is a reasonable minimum standard.
Wiggums,
Again, if you endorsed him, it counts. If you endorsed him for a retake after he failed with someone else, it still counts because you endorsed him. One failed student for you.
There's more. If you endorse him and he fails, it counts as a failure for you. If you endorse him and he fails again, he counts as another failure. And another, and another, so long as it keeps happening. You're held responsible for each recommendation, and every time you recommend (ad infinitum) and the student fails, it counts to your detriment. In this case against your ability to obtain a gold seal, and ultimately against your ability to hold a flight instructor (and possibly airman) certificate.
The first run (first-time applicant) requirement only applies to the successful applicants you can count for the gold-seal requirement.
As an example, you have 10 total students. Two fail, but both pass on their second attempt. You are acceptable, as you still have an 80% first time pass rate.
You have 10 total students. Three fail, but pass on their second attempt. You are not eligible for the gold seal certificate, because these didn't pass on their first attempt. You have made 13 recommendations (10 the first time around, and three the second). 80% must pass on the first try. You had 70% pass on the first try.
You have 15 students. Ten pass on the first attempt two on the second attempt. You have a 67% initial pass rate, and are liable for certificate action. You will be placed under surveilance. Your overall pass rate, after recommending all five of the first-time failures, then drops to 60%. With the initial pass rate so low, and the second time pass rate at only 40%, you are then almost certain to face certificate action.
Again, a good reason to ensure a student is ready before recommending him or her for a certificate, rating, or knowledge test.
Again, if you endorsed him, it counts. If you endorsed him for a retake after he failed with someone else, it still counts because you endorsed him. One failed student for you.
There's more. If you endorse him and he fails, it counts as a failure for you. If you endorse him and he fails again, he counts as another failure. And another, and another, so long as it keeps happening. You're held responsible for each recommendation, and every time you recommend (ad infinitum) and the student fails, it counts to your detriment. In this case against your ability to obtain a gold seal, and ultimately against your ability to hold a flight instructor (and possibly airman) certificate.
The first run (first-time applicant) requirement only applies to the successful applicants you can count for the gold-seal requirement.
As an example, you have 10 total students. Two fail, but both pass on their second attempt. You are acceptable, as you still have an 80% first time pass rate.
You have 10 total students. Three fail, but pass on their second attempt. You are not eligible for the gold seal certificate, because these didn't pass on their first attempt. You have made 13 recommendations (10 the first time around, and three the second). 80% must pass on the first try. You had 70% pass on the first try.
You have 15 students. Ten pass on the first attempt two on the second attempt. You have a 67% initial pass rate, and are liable for certificate action. You will be placed under surveilance. Your overall pass rate, after recommending all five of the first-time failures, then drops to 60%. With the initial pass rate so low, and the second time pass rate at only 40%, you are then almost certain to face certificate action.
Again, a good reason to ensure a student is ready before recommending him or her for a certificate, rating, or knowledge test.
chrisdahut24
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- Oct 28, 2002
- Posts
- 134
Avbug,
How about if I send someone up under part 141? I've always thought that since the 8710 does not get submitted until the student passes, and since the student isn't really taking a checkride (only an end of course test), that 141 may be somewhat immune to FAA scrutiny. However, I've been told by one of my suepriors that the FAA monitors our performance based on stage check, end of course as well as FAA (part 61) checkrides. I don't really see how this is possible, nor have I ever seen anything in writing supporting this. Could you share your view?
Many thanks.
How about if I send someone up under part 141? I've always thought that since the 8710 does not get submitted until the student passes, and since the student isn't really taking a checkride (only an end of course test), that 141 may be somewhat immune to FAA scrutiny. However, I've been told by one of my suepriors that the FAA monitors our performance based on stage check, end of course as well as FAA (part 61) checkrides. I don't really see how this is possible, nor have I ever seen anything in writing supporting this. Could you share your view?
Many thanks.
Chrisdahut,
Your supervisor is correct. You actually will receive more scrutiny by the FAA than most instructors operating strictly under Part 61.
Surviellance is conducted on instructors flying under Part 141 just as on instructors operating under Part 61. Surveillance isn't limited to the instructor. Typical surveillance includes direct discussion with the instructor, observation of ground or flight instruction, flying with and interviewing students previously or currently taught by the instructor, reviewing student records and instructor records, etc.
Students may be inspected, as may your school.
FAA Order 8700.1 Volume II, Chapter 12, provides the details of surveillance of a flight instructor. It states that if the instructor is employed by a school, the inspector should examine employment records related to aviation activities and note the instructor's performance on school standardization checks and other training. Although uncertificated schools are not required to keep records, the inspector should examine records if they are available.
The following information, taken from the General Aviation Operations Inspectors Handbook, describes the general reasons that surveillance of a flight instructor may be conducted:
A. General Process. Although flight instructor certificates are renewed every 24 months, the surveillance of individual flight instructors and their activities should take place on a random basis in the interim. High activity CFIs should receive a higher level of supervision and surveillance since this segment of the CFI population is responsible for a larger percentage of pilot training and certifications. A high activity CFI is one who recommends at least four applicants annually for a practical test. In addition to routine surveillance, an inspector should take appropriate action, documenting those actions on FAA Form 8000-36, if any of the following circumstances exist:
(1) a justifiable public complaint is directed towards a CFI;
(2) a CFI is involved in an accident or incident; or
(3) a student pilot instructed by the CFI is involved in an accident or incident.
B. Surveillance. Since the flight instructor has a responsibility aviation safety, an FAA inspector's contacts with the flight instructor provide an opportunity to discuss current regulations, procedures, and techniques for the instructor to use in fulfilling that responsibility. These contacts also provide an opportunity for the inspector to observe the flight instructor conducting instruction.
C. Inspector's Conduct. During surveillance, interference with the flight instructor's routine should be kept to a minimum. The purpose of the inspector's discussion with the flight instructor is twofold: to inform the flight instructor of changes in regulations and to determine the flight instructor's capabilities.
D. Initiation of Surveillance. There are many circumstances that may result in an inspector initiating the surveillance of a flight instructor. For example, an inspector may initiate surveillance because of observations made during a pilot school inspection. A flight instructor may be subject to an inspection during an inspector's random visit to an airport, or as a result of that instructor's visit to a Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). An instructor may also be subject to surveillance because of an accident or incident, or if deficiencies in the instructor's students become apparent. High activity CFIs should be inspected when applicant failure rates of 30 percent or greater are observed.
Your supervisor is correct. You actually will receive more scrutiny by the FAA than most instructors operating strictly under Part 61.
Surviellance is conducted on instructors flying under Part 141 just as on instructors operating under Part 61. Surveillance isn't limited to the instructor. Typical surveillance includes direct discussion with the instructor, observation of ground or flight instruction, flying with and interviewing students previously or currently taught by the instructor, reviewing student records and instructor records, etc.
Students may be inspected, as may your school.
FAA Order 8700.1 Volume II, Chapter 12, provides the details of surveillance of a flight instructor. It states that if the instructor is employed by a school, the inspector should examine employment records related to aviation activities and note the instructor's performance on school standardization checks and other training. Although uncertificated schools are not required to keep records, the inspector should examine records if they are available.
The following information, taken from the General Aviation Operations Inspectors Handbook, describes the general reasons that surveillance of a flight instructor may be conducted:
A. General Process. Although flight instructor certificates are renewed every 24 months, the surveillance of individual flight instructors and their activities should take place on a random basis in the interim. High activity CFIs should receive a higher level of supervision and surveillance since this segment of the CFI population is responsible for a larger percentage of pilot training and certifications. A high activity CFI is one who recommends at least four applicants annually for a practical test. In addition to routine surveillance, an inspector should take appropriate action, documenting those actions on FAA Form 8000-36, if any of the following circumstances exist:
(1) a justifiable public complaint is directed towards a CFI;
(2) a CFI is involved in an accident or incident; or
(3) a student pilot instructed by the CFI is involved in an accident or incident.
B. Surveillance. Since the flight instructor has a responsibility aviation safety, an FAA inspector's contacts with the flight instructor provide an opportunity to discuss current regulations, procedures, and techniques for the instructor to use in fulfilling that responsibility. These contacts also provide an opportunity for the inspector to observe the flight instructor conducting instruction.
C. Inspector's Conduct. During surveillance, interference with the flight instructor's routine should be kept to a minimum. The purpose of the inspector's discussion with the flight instructor is twofold: to inform the flight instructor of changes in regulations and to determine the flight instructor's capabilities.
D. Initiation of Surveillance. There are many circumstances that may result in an inspector initiating the surveillance of a flight instructor. For example, an inspector may initiate surveillance because of observations made during a pilot school inspection. A flight instructor may be subject to an inspection during an inspector's random visit to an airport, or as a result of that instructor's visit to a Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). An instructor may also be subject to surveillance because of an accident or incident, or if deficiencies in the instructor's students become apparent. High activity CFIs should be inspected when applicant failure rates of 30 percent or greater are observed.
spitfiremk8
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- Mar 5, 2002
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