GoJets? Whats the deal?

[Tarzan]

I've searched the forum for it in regionals but didn't find what the real scoop was. Why is everybody so down on these guys? Please enlighten me.

 

[jackbo]

It was created by TSA management (that's "Trans States Airlines") as an alter-ego carrier to specifically do an end run around the TSA pilots contract.

They started a NON-UNION carrier and it will hurt all TSA pilots. Anyone that goes there is a moron and will get what they deserve.

You are now enlightened.

 

[flyer172r]

It was created by TSA management (that's "Trans States Airlines") as an alter-ego carrier to specifically do an end run around the TSA pilots contract.

Well, they did it to specifically do an end run around the Eagle scope clause. It just so happens (by pure coincidence I'm sure <cough> sarcasm <cough>) that when the TSA contract comes up for renewal, GoJets will, if it goes according to their plan, be up and running and ready for whipsaw.

 

[J32driver]

Well, they did it to specifically do an end run around the Eagle scope clause. It just so happens (by pure coincidence I'm sure <cough> sarcasm <cough>) that when the TSA contract comes up for renewal, GoJets will, if it goes according to their plan, be up and running and ready for whipsaw.

Nope... they did it spedifically to get around the American Airlines Scope clause and decided it would be an easy way to F$CK the TSA guys come contract time. Sheesh you guys have short memories!

 

[flyer172r]

Nope... they did it spedifically to get around the American Airlines Scope clause and decided it would be an easy way to F$CK the TSA guys come contract time. Sheesh you guys have short memories!

That's what I was trying to say, I just didn't put it so bluntly. Sorry for mixing up the American players, but if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the American scope clause designed to protect Eagle?

(Watch this simple clarification turn into a 5 page argument)

 

[JackFlyer]

It was created by TSA management (that's "Trans States Airlines") as an alter-ego carrier to specifically do an end run around the TSA pilots contract.

I know the truth hurts and that is why I am hated..... BUT GoJet was created to get around APA SCOPE limits place on TSA for the American Connetion feed. GoJet will fly for UAL and will be the only UAX airline not limited to 72 or less seats. TSA pilots are upset beacuase their MEC/Union lost this flying.

They started a NON-UNION carrier and it will hurt all TSA pilots.

GoJet is being voluntarily represented by the Teamsters. The certification vote will occur in mid July. If TSA is trying to get around a contract with a non-union carrier, why would have the company voluntarily recognized the Teamsters? Why would have they TA'ed similar work rules? Why would they not fight organization and say fly these a/c for FAR mins and $10/hr?



Maybe because it was never indented screw TSA. Maybe because they didn't want to lost the Connection Flying. I listened to ALPA and Worth's dog and pony show in STL. It was the same old crap. He said he would not stand for low rates and bad work rules. BUT, he still signed that MESA contract. He still signed the Mesba CBA. Both of which were BELOW industry average in Rates (ex SF3) and rules. ALPA is just trying to back pedal now. The have the entire industry pissed at them from regionals to majors.



GoJet is nothing new in the corporate world. LLC's are nothing new to holding companies. Think about how many product are produced by companies within a parent company. Pilots complain alot. But sometime we need to adopt new schools of thought. If companies can not go out and move into a new market how can it survive. Union thinking is a communistic and not capitalistic. In the FREE market you can take your talents a move on. To better your self. If ALPA can not figure this out like other national unions have (ie electricians, pipefiters etc). Then it will also die.



I really hate to fuel this fire, but these are the truths of this situation. GoJet is a separate company for TSA. Comair is separate from ASA and Delta. American Eagle is separate for American. The list can go on and on.



I know that alot of people here don't like these hard facts.

Unfortunately the truth hurts!

A national union seniority list is the only way I can see to ever fix this problem.

 

[J32driver]

why would have the company voluntarily recognized the Teamsters?

To make it even harder to install ALPA!

Why, if HULAS was such a nice guy, wouldn't he just make the flying one list of pilots. Seems to be heading in the right direction at Wexford Holdings!!!! Why not do the same at TSA.

I'll tell you why since you probably won't admit it. Pure economics. New pilots, no seniority, doesn't have to bargain with ALPA and pay rates that he doesn't want to. That is the only motivating factor for not bringing the ALPA, the TSA Pilots, and their Contract over to HO-JETS. Thats it... money... nothing else.

 

[TSA ERJ]

Jack, you keep saying the TSA MEC lost this flying. Lets hear the story. Give some details.

Make no mistake, GoJet will be used to screw the TSA pilots. They will be used to whipsaw the TSA pilots in upcoming contract negotiations.

You are correct, GoJet is a separate company, but they will be used to harm the TSA pilots. It's Freedom all over again.

Why don't you just admit you are woking for GoJet? If you are so proud of your decision and feel you've bettered yourself then why do you deny working there?

 

[TSA Pilot]

Teamsters or Not.

When TSA starts our negotiations or goes on strike. Our 700 pilots and 70 planes will have more of an effect on Hulas and his bank book than you ever will. GoJets will be one list, ALPA..... and Teamsters will be no more. I hope you enjoy flying in the cockpits with all the guys you screwed over. But hey you'll get a pay raise out of our hard work

 

[ERAU2GIA]

Pure economics. New pilots, no seniority, doesn't have to bargain with ALPA and pay rates that he doesn't want to. That is the only motivating factor for not bringing the ALPA, the TSA Pilots, and their Contract over to HO-JETS. Thats it... money... nothing else.

It's called Captialism. Welcome to America.
RM

 

[Tarzan]

Thanks for the input.

 

[Otto Coarsen]

It's called Captialism. Welcome to America.
RM

I think your tone may change when you gain some real experience in this industry son. How are you going to support your family some day on the piss poor wages that come of situations like this?

Your mentality I assume is: Left ERAU thinking I'll buy some 1900 time at GIA so I can be competitive for an RJ job at any carrier who will hire me INCLUDING alter ego's like GOJets or Freedumb. I don't care if the wages are un-livable, because I'll be on with Delta or UAL a few years later.

10 years later when you can't afford to feed your children because you STILL work at a lowlife regional, you are going to preach out against alter-ego carriers and PFT because you will have learned. It will take poverty to finally show you the error of your thought process.

Doesn't matter though, people like you don't listen. Go work at GoJets. Learn for yourself.

 

[jtharth]

hey otto.. dont let erau2gia flamebait you... research his previous posts

 

[BlackPilot628]

I think your tone may change when you gain some real experience in this industry son. How are you going to support your family some day on the piss poor wages that come of situations like this?

Your mentality I assume is: Left ERAU thinking I'll buy some 1900 time at GIA so I can be competitive for an RJ job at any carrier who will hire me INCLUDING alter ego's like GOJets or Freedumb. I don't care if the wages are un-livable, because I'll be on with Delta or UAL a few years later.

10 years later when you can't afford to feed your children because you STILL work at a lowlife regional, you are going to preach out against alter-ego carriers and PFT because you will have learned. It will take poverty to finally show you the error of your thought process.

Doesn't matter though, people like you don't listen. Go work at GoJets. Learn for yourself.

haha. You're going to Delta or UAL; let us know when you wake up!
Don't burn your bridges, you may be sitting at a Piss poor Regional for the next 10 years as well.

 

[Otto Coarsen]

haha. You're going to Delta or UAL; let us know when you wake up!
Don't burn your bridges, you may be sitting at a Piss poor Regional for the next 10 years as well.

Did I say I was, Douchebag?

That's the point of my post. We all may be flying at the regional level for quite some time. This is why it's imperitive to preserve any shred of dignity we may still have and try and make this career field livable.

 

[climbhappy]

Otto ...it doesn't hold water....

Otto,
you sound as if you have some degree of control over the downward spiral of wages in this, a mature industry. as if holding out ,(when oil is 50 plus a barrel, and there is way too much capacity ) and moron CEOs won't raise ticket prices.

as if getting on the union train is going to have a positive consequence. not to mentio all the PFt'ers waiting to yank gear for dirve thru wages.

I think you wanting to say solidarity works. If it worked for Lech Walesa in Poland which lead to the fall of communism, then saying no will lead to a yes.

until our govt' quits lending bad companies money, until congress changes the pension laws and forbids underfunding; you'll have nothing to grasp .

the system sucks and that's my point. but anyone who acts like some pilot group can now change the current dynamic is more full of Jet A than they ever dreamed possible.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Otto,
you sound as if you have some degree of control over the downward spiral of wages in this, a mature industry. as if holding out ,(when oil is 50 plus a barrel, and there is way too much capacity ) and moron CEOs won't raise ticket prices.

as if getting on the union train is going to have a positive consequence. not to mentio all the PFt'ers waiting to yank gear for dirve thru wages.

I think you wanting to say solidarity works. If it worked for Lech Walesa in Poland which lead to the fall of communism, then saying no will lead to a yes.

until our govt' quits lending bad companies money, until congress changes the pension laws and forbids underfunding; you'll have nothing to grasp .

the system sucks and that's my point. but anyone who acts like some pilot group can now change the current dynamic is more full of Jet A than they ever dreamed possible.

If the CEOs are as greedy as you say, why won't they raise ticket prices?

Answer: You simply do not understand economics.
If they could, they would.

 

[J32driver]

It's called Captialism. Welcome to America.
RM

No... its called an illegal breach of a union labor contract. And using ERAU in your screen name is a tragic embarrassment to alumni everywhere.

 

[climbhappy]

100LL Again:

nice jab...I do understand economics.... So your point..If they could ,they would...sounds so simple.... has nothing to do with economics, but everything to do with pricing strategy and identifying your market and your competition.

Why do you think Delta has 757 painted in lime green, UAL A320 with TED on 'em

Jetblue with their entire design, blue shirt and tvs on seats... it's called marketing..... you don't picked up the wrong textbook.....

in the trucking industry, the owners pass all of the cost of fuel back to customers.
they've also refused to add capacity. ..... The banks are too eager to lend money to shoddy outfits. How else do explain a stupid business plan like ACAs and their blueprint 30/barrel oil assumption.


I don't care if it's collusion or not,,, the gov't needs to reject underfunded pensions and liquidate any company not properly funding their pension obligations. if it means rasing prices do it...right now loads are at an all time high....now is the time to do it...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Nevermind. Dont care as much as I thought I did.

 

[100LL... Again!]

100LL Again:

nice jab...I do understand economics.... So your point..If they could ,they would...sounds so simple.... has nothing to do with economics, but everything to do with pricing strategy and identifying your market and your competition.

Why do you think Delta has 757 painted in lime green, UAL A320 with TED on 'em

Jetblue with their entire design, blue shirt and tvs on seats... it's called marketing..... you don't picked up the wrong textbook.....

in the trucking industry, the owners pass all of the cost of fuel back to customers.
they've also refused to add capacity. ..... The banks are too eager to lend money to shoddy outfits. How else do explain a stupid business plan like ACAs and their blueprint 30/barrel oil assumption.


I don't care if it's collusion or not,,, the gov't needs to reject underfunded pensions and liquidate any company not properly funding their pension obligations. if it means rasing prices do it...right now loads are at an all time high....now is the time to do it...

Please don't think that I think that airline management (anywhere) is especially intelligent.

I am simply saying that pricing is a more complicated issue than simple refusal to raise prices.

One argument is that if the airlines were not adding so much capacity, then others would not need to follow suit, therefore keeping capacity in check.

However, we will not be able to get the toothpaste back in the tube at this point.

If you meant that any of these ther factors is why pricing is too low, then you probably do understand economics.

I've just grown weary of those who think that one brave CEO standing up and setting prices at a profitable level will accomplish anything other that finishing off that carrier.

 

[climbhappy]

100LL...Again:
that's why i asked an expert in another filed hit hard by fuel costs and pragmatic common sense prevails. No, One CEO can't save the industry, but Gordon Behtune darn sure tried. he made money and knew business.

the creditors don't help either, it's an industry that keeps on giving second chances.

This USA today article on FLYi said it best. "Low cost carrier drives fares even lower. (the fine print went on to say thet 100 in the 1st quarter.)

What's so great about that. Could you go to the country club and hit the tees with the buddies producing those numbers and feel good about yourself.

The answer, " yeah, I know, if the guy just robbed the coffers with a golden parachute and could retire, then yes"

 

[jarhead]

100LL Again:


in the trucking industry, the owners pass all of the cost of fuel back to customers.

Actually, this statement is not quite true. I know, as in another life I contracted with trucking companies and had them bidding for my company’s freight business. Often contracts were made that prevented any hike in price for a specified time frame….6 months to a year. Also, even though there were tariffs that spelled out the freight rate per thousand lbs of a given commodity for a given destination from our plant, major discounts from that tariff was the norm, not the exception.

Also, even when there were no contracts in effect with a trucker or contracts with them were in negotiation, all they could do was attempt to take some of the discount away, or attempt to add a fuel surcharge. We would always fight that with the threat to give our business to another competing trucking company. Sometimes they would back down for fear of losing a major customer to a leaner more cost effective competitor. Sometimes they would say fine, take your business to XYZ, as they saw no reason to operate at a loss. Its all based on competition, and the P & L.

There were also instances when we chose not to do business with the cheapest freight cost carrier. If an outfit would continually lose freight, damage the freight, or show up with it at an irate customers dock three days late, no matter how “cheap” it was, it was not worth it to us, and we would find a carrier who did a better job, even if it cost us more to ship.

 

[100LL... Again!]

It is also very easy to look at a five-year period as a long time.

Economic forces vary in speed and momentum. In the big picture, a lot of what you are seeing is just a blip on the whole plot of prices.

Many bad decisions were made by a lot of people. I think that we are (at this particular moment) all tied together and plummeting off a cliff in an industry-wide economic free-fall.

In other words, gravity is at work here, we can all argue over who jumped off the cliff and who dragged who along for the fall, but there is little to do but wait for impact.

This short time before the real reckoning occurs might be most profitably spent trying to at least be on top the pile as at hits the canyon floor Wile E. Coyote style.

If anyone thinks they know how this could be turned around, please post your ideas so that we might scoff at it.