Godless atheists, at it again!

[Ivan Yankenoff]

I would also like to add the big bang theory makes no sense whatsoever to be explained by human logic. If there was a big bang of cosmic material, where the heck did the original cosmic materical/energy source come from?

First, of all, the idea of the universe "coming from" nothing, far from being a stipulation of standard Big Bang theory, is inconsistent with it. The theoretical foundation of standard Big Bang theory is Einstein's general theory of relativity, and according to the general theory of relativity, space and time are themselves an inseparable part of the universe. Hence, on standard Big Bang theory, there can have been no time prior to the initial singularity, which in turns means that the vision of a primordial nothingness from which the universe suddenly emerged is inconsistent with standard Big Bang theory. As Stephen Hawking writes,

[T]o talk about causation or creation implicitly assumes there was a time before the big bang singularity. We have known for twenty-five years that Einstein's general theory of relativity predicts that time must have had a beginning in a singularity fifteen billion years ago. (Hawking 1993:46)

(ii) Standard Big Bang theory, however, does not provide a complete account of the origin of the universe, so one should not draw any metaphysical conclusions from it. Because the early universe combined small size with high energy, one cannot give an accurate account of the early history of the universe without a theory of quantum gravity (a theory that synthesizes quantum mechanics and general relativity). No theory of quantum gravity has yet been fully developed, but according to physicist Lee Smolin, any theory of quantum gravity must have only one of three consequences:

[A] There is still a first moment in time, even when quantum mechanics is taken into consideration.
The singularity is eliminated by some quantum mechanical effect. As a result, when we run the clock back, the universe does not reach a state of infinite density. Something else happens when the universe reaches some very high density that allows time to continue indefinitely into the past.
[C] Something new and strange and quantum mechanical happens to time, which is neither possibility A or B. For example, perhaps we reach a state where it is no longer appropriate to think that reality is composed of a series of moments that follow each other in a progression, one after another. In this case, there is perhaps no singularity, but it may also not make sense to ask what happened before the universe was extremely dense. (Smolin 1997:82)

If consequence A turns out to be the case, then we have the same situation as that described by standard Big Bang theory: a universe which exists at every instant of time, and hence cannot "come from" anything at all.

If consequence B turns out to be the case, then the universe extends back infinitely in time, likewise eliminating the supposed problems raised by the universe "coming from" nothing.

If consequence C turns out to be the case (this is the kind of scenario proposed in the quantum cosmological speculations of Hawking 1988), then, again the universe cannot have "come from" anything, as the very notion of time-ordering ceases to have meaning in the early universe.

Creationism, then, finds no help from standard or quantum cosmology.

(iii) If we assume that there in fact was some time prior to the origin of the universe, at which there was nothing but time, then it is still unclear that there is a problem. If there is nothing it all, how can there be a restriction on something coming into being? There is certainly no logical contradiction in imagining there being nothing at one point of time and then something at a later point in time. It is not as though we are talking about "nothing" itself somehow changing into an existent something, or about the universe causing itself.

Furthermore, since general relativity does not allow for time without space, the view that there was a time prior to the origin of the universe would amount to the suggestion that there was a preexisting spacetime, and there have been a number of mechanisms proposed for how a universe could come into existence spontaneously from a preexisting spacetime (Smolin 1997, Gribbin 1993:243-254).

(iv) Vilenkin (1982, see also Guth 1997:271-276) has proposed that quantum mechanics alone could allow for the transition of a universe with no geometry (no points) to a universe with a geometry, in effect generating the universe out of nothing. However, since quantum mechanics requires time to function, it is unclear to me whether this proposal is coherent. I mention it as another item on the table that must be considered.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

I think Rev. Maynard James Keenan said it best.

Disgustipated:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! D*mn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

This is necessary.

It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch. You looked up at your sky then. That made blue be your color. You had your knife there with you too. When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes. Your hands were sticky. You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green. Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like this. You were already getting nervous again. Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up. Your head was almost empty. It always hurt you when you woke up like this. You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began to walk, waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you. You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked toward it. "If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our cousin." Why didn't anyone else understand these important things? You got to your car and tried all the doors. They were locked. It was a red car and it was new. There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat. Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by your woods. You began to walk towards them. Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out there were yours too.

 

[Timebuilder]

Having someone of the stature of Dr. Hawking comment on the creation of the universe is a little like asking the world's smartest ant to comment on the mideast crisis: the other ants will ooh and aah, and be suitably impressed, but they are still using the limitations of the understanding of ants to frame the discussion.

The ways of Man are tiny and infantile compared to the ways of God.

 

[skyking1976]

I think Rev. Maynard James Keenan said it best.

Disgustipated:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! D*mn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

This is necessary.

It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch. You looked up at your sky then. That made blue be your color. You had your knife there with you too. When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes. Your hands were sticky. You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green. Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like this. You were already getting nervous again. Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up. Your head was almost empty. It always hurt you when you woke up like this. You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began to walk, waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you. You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked toward it. "If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our cousin." Why didn't anyone else understand these important things? You got to your car and tried all the doors. They were locked. It was a red car and it was new. There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat. Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by your woods. You began to walk towards them. Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out there were yours too.

Nothing like some Tool to clear things up...

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Having someone of the stature of Dr. Hawking comment on the creation of the universe is a little like asking the world's smartest ant to comment on the mideast crisis: the other ants will ooh and aah, and be suitably impressed, but they are still using the limitations of the understanding of ants to frame the discussion.

Prove me wrong with you Mark chapter69.666.08 bullsh*t. It is obvious logical reasoning is beyond you because you sole source of defense is a fictional book.

And having your explainations from what many people use as as*wipe really proves your point.

It's not our problem to prove you wrong. I take great pleasure in siitting back and laughing. I know where I stand, but if you are wrong where do you stand, right beside me. I'll save a swig on the last bottle of jager. Funny how I can think for myself but still have the graciousness enough to share with a "believer".

 

[Timebuilder]

Prove me wrong with you Mark chapter69.666.08 bullsh*t. It is obvious logical reasoning is beyond you because you sole source of defense is a fictional book.

Ah, what an intelligent response. Did you make that up yourself, or get it from a website?

Really, prove to me that the Bible is "fictional."

You get back to me when you figure out a way to do that.

And having your explainations from what many people use as as*wipe really proves your point.

Be careful there, you might get a paper cut!!!

It's not our problem to prove you wrong. I take great pleasure in siitting back and laughing. I know where I stand, but if you are wrong where do you stand, right beside me. I'll save a swig on the last bottle of jager. Funny how I can think for myself but still have the graciousness enough to share with a "believer".

I would only expect the laughter of the vacant mind, and a poor attempt at self-aggrandizement.

You are a fool. Laugh on, fool.

 

[SATCFI]

Ivan,

It is apparent to all from your posts that the really intelligent and thought out ones are plagarized and you should give credit to the source. Your most recent post is the real you. Quit trying to fool us.

 

[SATCFI]

Ivan,

I apologize for the previous post...that was hateful...I was in a bad mood. Sorry...

 

[Typhoon1244]

First, a review of the material in question, the Bible...

...and that's where I stopped reading.

Timebuilder, we've talked about this before. The Bible must be left out of any discussion of "God's" motivation. The Bible was written by humans with human interests and fears. It's printed on machines built by humans. It's translated, decorated, and marketed by humans. There is no evidence of divine inspiration. By definition, there can't be.

What's needed here is a discussion of things you have seen, felt, smelled, heard, and touched...or intuited, for that matter. To say that "God" exists because the Bible says so is like saying Bokonon exists because Kurt Vonnegut says so.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Third off, a feeling that death cannot be the end. Not everyone on this earth gets to enjoy the full wonders of this world for 70+ years, and I can't imagine that this is the only life.

I understand that feeling completely...but I don't believe that wishful thinking guarantees the existence of an afterlife. If death--or what we call death--is indeed the end, being unhappy about it won't change it.

...the fact that such evil acts exist definitely leads me to believe that Satan is a real force counter to God.

Isn't it possible that "evil" is a function of human motivation and behavior? Must there be supernatural influence? It seems to me that belief in Satan diminishes personal responsibility a great deal. "Yes, he murdered that woman...but the Devil made him do it."

On a logical basis, double-blind scientific prayer studies have been conducted in medical cases proving that it can have a positive effect...

This is true. However, it is equally true that non-religious people have beaten a variety of illnesses--including cancer--by maintaining a positive attitude. No prayer, just a firm belief that this sickness isn't going to finish them. My own great-aunt forced her throat cancer into remission by simply refusing to surrender...and she hadn't set foot in a church since she was a teenager.

I would also like to add the big bang theory makes no sense whatsoever to be explained by human logic.

That's why cosmologists are backing away from Big Bang theory more and more. There are other ways of explaining the Universe that don't require so much contortion of physical laws.

Creation, however, is not among them. It requires more suspension of logic than any other theory.

...my personal belief is that if you believe in God and try in good faith to lead your life in goodness, then you're looking at a good afterlife. Whether one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc.

I'm very, very glad to hear you say that...in fact, I applaud you, sir. Most Christians that I've encountered (including you, Timebuilder) apparently believe that it doesn't matter how good a life you've lead: if you're a Muslim or a Buddhist, you're going to spend an awful lot of the Afterlife digging flaming brimstone out of your toes.

And Fly2Scuba, you're the first Christian I've encountered who justified their belief without having to lean on the human Bible. That gives you more credibility than most...in my mind, anyway.

Thank you.