Godless atheists, at it again!

[Ivan Yankenoff]

I would also like to add the big bang theory makes no sense whatsoever to be explained by human logic. If there was a big bang of cosmic material, where the heck did the original cosmic materical/energy source come from?

First, of all, the idea of the universe "coming from" nothing, far from being a stipulation of standard Big Bang theory, is inconsistent with it. The theoretical foundation of standard Big Bang theory is Einstein's general theory of relativity, and according to the general theory of relativity, space and time are themselves an inseparable part of the universe. Hence, on standard Big Bang theory, there can have been no time prior to the initial singularity, which in turns means that the vision of a primordial nothingness from which the universe suddenly emerged is inconsistent with standard Big Bang theory. As Stephen Hawking writes,

[T]o talk about causation or creation implicitly assumes there was a time before the big bang singularity. We have known for twenty-five years that Einstein's general theory of relativity predicts that time must have had a beginning in a singularity fifteen billion years ago. (Hawking 1993:46)

(ii) Standard Big Bang theory, however, does not provide a complete account of the origin of the universe, so one should not draw any metaphysical conclusions from it. Because the early universe combined small size with high energy, one cannot give an accurate account of the early history of the universe without a theory of quantum gravity (a theory that synthesizes quantum mechanics and general relativity). No theory of quantum gravity has yet been fully developed, but according to physicist Lee Smolin, any theory of quantum gravity must have only one of three consequences:

[A] There is still a first moment in time, even when quantum mechanics is taken into consideration.
The singularity is eliminated by some quantum mechanical effect. As a result, when we run the clock back, the universe does not reach a state of infinite density. Something else happens when the universe reaches some very high density that allows time to continue indefinitely into the past.
[C] Something new and strange and quantum mechanical happens to time, which is neither possibility A or B. For example, perhaps we reach a state where it is no longer appropriate to think that reality is composed of a series of moments that follow each other in a progression, one after another. In this case, there is perhaps no singularity, but it may also not make sense to ask what happened before the universe was extremely dense. (Smolin 1997:82)

If consequence A turns out to be the case, then we have the same situation as that described by standard Big Bang theory: a universe which exists at every instant of time, and hence cannot "come from" anything at all.

If consequence B turns out to be the case, then the universe extends back infinitely in time, likewise eliminating the supposed problems raised by the universe "coming from" nothing.

If consequence C turns out to be the case (this is the kind of scenario proposed in the quantum cosmological speculations of Hawking 1988), then, again the universe cannot have "come from" anything, as the very notion of time-ordering ceases to have meaning in the early universe.

Creationism, then, finds no help from standard or quantum cosmology.

(iii) If we assume that there in fact was some time prior to the origin of the universe, at which there was nothing but time, then it is still unclear that there is a problem. If there is nothing it all, how can there be a restriction on something coming into being? There is certainly no logical contradiction in imagining there being nothing at one point of time and then something at a later point in time. It is not as though we are talking about "nothing" itself somehow changing into an existent something, or about the universe causing itself.

Furthermore, since general relativity does not allow for time without space, the view that there was a time prior to the origin of the universe would amount to the suggestion that there was a preexisting spacetime, and there have been a number of mechanisms proposed for how a universe could come into existence spontaneously from a preexisting spacetime (Smolin 1997, Gribbin 1993:243-254).

(iv) Vilenkin (1982, see also Guth 1997:271-276) has proposed that quantum mechanics alone could allow for the transition of a universe with no geometry (no points) to a universe with a geometry, in effect generating the universe out of nothing. However, since quantum mechanics requires time to function, it is unclear to me whether this proposal is coherent. I mention it as another item on the table that must be considered.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

I think Rev. Maynard James Keenan said it best.

Disgustipated:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! D*mn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

This is necessary.

It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch. You looked up at your sky then. That made blue be your color. You had your knife there with you too. When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes. Your hands were sticky. You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green. Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like this. You were already getting nervous again. Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up. Your head was almost empty. It always hurt you when you woke up like this. You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began to walk, waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you. You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked toward it. "If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our cousin." Why didn't anyone else understand these important things? You got to your car and tried all the doors. They were locked. It was a red car and it was new. There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat. Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by your woods. You began to walk towards them. Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out there were yours too.

 

[Timebuilder]

Having someone of the stature of Dr. Hawking comment on the creation of the universe is a little like asking the world's smartest ant to comment on the mideast crisis: the other ants will ooh and aah, and be suitably impressed, but they are still using the limitations of the understanding of ants to frame the discussion.

The ways of Man are tiny and infantile compared to the ways of God.

 

[skyking1976]

I think Rev. Maynard James Keenan said it best.

Disgustipated:

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! D*mn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........

This is necessary.

It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch. You looked up at your sky then. That made blue be your color. You had your knife there with you too. When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes. Your hands were sticky. You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green. Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like this. You were already getting nervous again. Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up. Your head was almost empty. It always hurt you when you woke up like this. You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began to walk, waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you. You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked toward it. "If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our cousin." Why didn't anyone else understand these important things? You got to your car and tried all the doors. They were locked. It was a red car and it was new. There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat. Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by your woods. You began to walk towards them. Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out there were yours too.

Nothing like some Tool to clear things up...

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Having someone of the stature of Dr. Hawking comment on the creation of the universe is a little like asking the world's smartest ant to comment on the mideast crisis: the other ants will ooh and aah, and be suitably impressed, but they are still using the limitations of the understanding of ants to frame the discussion.

Prove me wrong with you Mark chapter69.666.08 bullsh*t. It is obvious logical reasoning is beyond you because you sole source of defense is a fictional book.

And having your explainations from what many people use as as*wipe really proves your point.

It's not our problem to prove you wrong. I take great pleasure in siitting back and laughing. I know where I stand, but if you are wrong where do you stand, right beside me. I'll save a swig on the last bottle of jager. Funny how I can think for myself but still have the graciousness enough to share with a "believer".

 

[Timebuilder]

Prove me wrong with you Mark chapter69.666.08 bullsh*t. It is obvious logical reasoning is beyond you because you sole source of defense is a fictional book.

Ah, what an intelligent response. Did you make that up yourself, or get it from a website?

Really, prove to me that the Bible is "fictional."

You get back to me when you figure out a way to do that.

And having your explainations from what many people use as as*wipe really proves your point.

Be careful there, you might get a paper cut!!!

It's not our problem to prove you wrong. I take great pleasure in siitting back and laughing. I know where I stand, but if you are wrong where do you stand, right beside me. I'll save a swig on the last bottle of jager. Funny how I can think for myself but still have the graciousness enough to share with a "believer".

I would only expect the laughter of the vacant mind, and a poor attempt at self-aggrandizement.

You are a fool. Laugh on, fool.

 

[SATCFI]

Ivan,

It is apparent to all from your posts that the really intelligent and thought out ones are plagarized and you should give credit to the source. Your most recent post is the real you. Quit trying to fool us.

 

[SATCFI]

Ivan,

I apologize for the previous post...that was hateful...I was in a bad mood. Sorry...

 

[Typhoon1244]

First, a review of the material in question, the Bible...

...and that's where I stopped reading.

Timebuilder, we've talked about this before. The Bible must be left out of any discussion of "God's" motivation. The Bible was written by humans with human interests and fears. It's printed on machines built by humans. It's translated, decorated, and marketed by humans. There is no evidence of divine inspiration. By definition, there can't be.

What's needed here is a discussion of things you have seen, felt, smelled, heard, and touched...or intuited, for that matter. To say that "God" exists because the Bible says so is like saying Bokonon exists because Kurt Vonnegut says so.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Third off, a feeling that death cannot be the end. Not everyone on this earth gets to enjoy the full wonders of this world for 70+ years, and I can't imagine that this is the only life.

I understand that feeling completely...but I don't believe that wishful thinking guarantees the existence of an afterlife. If death--or what we call death--is indeed the end, being unhappy about it won't change it.

...the fact that such evil acts exist definitely leads me to believe that Satan is a real force counter to God.

Isn't it possible that "evil" is a function of human motivation and behavior? Must there be supernatural influence? It seems to me that belief in Satan diminishes personal responsibility a great deal. "Yes, he murdered that woman...but the Devil made him do it."

On a logical basis, double-blind scientific prayer studies have been conducted in medical cases proving that it can have a positive effect...

This is true. However, it is equally true that non-religious people have beaten a variety of illnesses--including cancer--by maintaining a positive attitude. No prayer, just a firm belief that this sickness isn't going to finish them. My own great-aunt forced her throat cancer into remission by simply refusing to surrender...and she hadn't set foot in a church since she was a teenager.

I would also like to add the big bang theory makes no sense whatsoever to be explained by human logic.

That's why cosmologists are backing away from Big Bang theory more and more. There are other ways of explaining the Universe that don't require so much contortion of physical laws.

Creation, however, is not among them. It requires more suspension of logic than any other theory.

...my personal belief is that if you believe in God and try in good faith to lead your life in goodness, then you're looking at a good afterlife. Whether one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc.

I'm very, very glad to hear you say that...in fact, I applaud you, sir. Most Christians that I've encountered (including you, Timebuilder) apparently believe that it doesn't matter how good a life you've lead: if you're a Muslim or a Buddhist, you're going to spend an awful lot of the Afterlife digging flaming brimstone out of your toes.

And Fly2Scuba, you're the first Christian I've encountered who justified their belief without having to lean on the human Bible. That gives you more credibility than most...in my mind, anyway.

Thank you.

 

[SATCFI]

By the way, my personal belief is that if you believe in God and try in good faith to lead your life in goodness, then you're looking at a good afterlife. Whether one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc.

Fly2Scuba,

If you are a Christian do you not believe in the infallibility of the Bible? Does the Bible not say: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (NIV John 14:6)

How can you reconcile what you said with what the Word says?

There are plenty of really good and nice people in Hell simply because they did not accept Christs free gift of salvation. We can never be good enough, or nice enough to our fellow man to earn our way into heaven. Salvation not gained by works, rather it is a gift.
John 4:16

 

[Typhoon1244]

How can you reconcile what you said with what the Word says?

Probably because Fly2Scuba realizes that a god who would condemn good people for being in the wrong church is not worthy of anyone's worship.

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder, we've talked about this before. The Bible must be left out of any discussion of "God's" motivation. The Bible was written by humans with human interests and fears. It's printed on machines built by humans. It's translated, decorated, and marketed by humans. There is no evidence of divine inspiration. By definition, there can't be.

Yes, we've talked about this before, and I have opined that there is no "proof" by your standard to support your argument. My argument needs no "proof", since proof has been designed out of the equation by God. The argument rests on 2Timothy 3:16-17. If that is not true, then none of what Christains believe is true.

If, however, 2Timothy 3:16-17 is true, then all of what Christians believe is true, even if we are not able to grasp how a perfect scripture was inspired into the souls and minds of men, carried in a strict oral tradition until comitted to paper, and preserved for us to rely upon today.

We don't have to be able to understand something in order for that thing to have the quality of objective truth.

What's needed here is a discussion of things you have seen, felt, smelled, heard, and touched...or intuited, for that matter. To say that "God" exists because the Bible says so is like saying Bokonon exists because Kurt Vonnegut says so.

Once again, this argument is only true if we have only the limited senses of Man to determine the truth of this assertion. God says that we have more, and that we are to walk by faith, and not by sight for now. If we are talking about Kurt, you are correct. If we are talking about God, then you must rely on His Word. Vonnegut is just an author of some books. God is the author of everything.

...my personal belief is that if you believe in God and try in good faith to lead your life in goodness, then you're looking at a good afterlife. Whether one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc.

The Bible says that this wonderful idea is incorrect.

And Fly2Scuba, you're the first Christian I've encountered who justified their belief without having to lean on the human Bible.

If you are a Christian in this age, you have only the Bible to support your concept of salvation. There is no "human Bible," only the Holy Bible. Without the Bible, you have no knowlege of Him, His plan of salvation, His teachings, in short, nothing. You can't just take the part of the Bible and say "I like this part, so I'll call myself a Christian." If you accept the role of Christ in your life, you must therefore accept His Word.

You can't have one without the other.

No Bible, no Christ.

Know Bible, know Christ.

Probably because Fly2Scuba realizes that a god who would condemn good people for being in the wrong church is not worthy of anyone's worship.

Unfortunately, neither you nor I get to set up this structure of law, doctrine, belief, or the benefit or punishment associated with either adherance or rejection of the teaching. Only God gets to do that. Is he condeming "good" people? Really? By whose standard? Yours? Only God has the plan, and He has communicated it in His Word. That's the whole story in a nutshell. God does not care what church you are in, as long as you are following Him. What determines if you are following Him? His teachings. Where do you find them? In the Bible.

There is no escaping the plan of salvation as told to us in the Bible. If you don't like it there will be a price to be paid for that insolence. Only you can decide if that is a price that you are willing to pay for your ability to retain your human arrogance.

Actually, only a God who provides a plan of salvation is worthy of everyone's worship.

 

[slide33]

There are plenty of really good and nice people in Hell simply because they did not accept Christs free gift of salvation.

Dear SATCFI,

Where can I go and get qualified to judge who goes to hell and who doesn't? From your posts, you seem to have this qualification. I think it could be a useful thing to have.

If you are a Christian in this age, you have only the Bible to support your concept of salvation.

.

My argument needs no "proof", since proof has been designed out of the equation by God.

Wow. You gotta love the audacity of some people on this board. "If you do not believe what I believe - then you are WRONG" "If you do not believe what I was told by my parents since I was born - then you are WRONG"

If you want to believe a book written by humans a few millenia ago, with stories past on generation to generation, and take it as the only "truth" - then that's your right. But I really cannot believe the arrogance that some have to tell people that they're going to hell because "you don't believe what I believe".

Everyone on this board has the right to believe whatever they want. But not a one of us has the right to say who's going to hell, who's belief is right or wrong. There's only ONE who does, and he doesn't post on this board

If you don't like it there will be a price to be paid for that insolence. Only you can decide if that is a price that you are willing to pay for your ability to retain your human arrogance.

Wow. I guess some pilots do have a God-complex.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think I see what you are not getting, slide. You are confusing the communication of the message with the authoring of the message. They aren't the same. Let's take it step by step.

Where can I go and get qualified to judge who goes to hell and who doesn't? From your posts, you seem to have this qualification. I think it could be a useful thing to have.

Humans are not qualified to "judge." The Bible conveys the conditions and kind of judgement available, and asserts who will or will not be saved. Communicating that message does not mean the person who is communicating is "judging."

Wow. You gotta love the audacity of some people on this board. "If you do not believe what I believe - then you are WRONG" "If you do not believe what I was told by my parents since I was born - then you are WRONG"

Same idea here. You are wrong because the Bible says so, not because any human here has independently reached this conclusion. It has nothing to do with what anyone's parents have said. It has to do with what God has said. Big difference.

If you want to believe a book written by humans a few millenia ago, with stories past on generation to generation, and take it as the only "truth" - then that's your right.

If I want to read a book written by humans, I might read the Grimm fairy tales. The Bible was not written, in terms of its content, by Men. The Men only took down the words, first in their hearts, and then in written form, checked by the inspiration of God for correct content, as in 2Tim 3:16-17.

There are many truths, such as being able to say that the sun will rise tomorrow. That is so very likely that it is almost certain. Almost. However, God's truth is 100% certain. For Him, that truth is already a reality.

But I really cannot believe the arrogance that some have to tell people that they're going to hell because "you don't believe what I believe".

It isn't because I believe it. It is an objective truth that stands alone, and would continue to stand, even if I were to cease believing that truth. Get it?

Everyone on this board has the right to believe whatever they want. But not a one of us has the right to say who's going to hell, who's belief is right or wrong. There's only ONE who does, and he doesn't post on this board

He doesn't have to post here. He already gave us everything He wants us to know about Him, and did so perfectly, without error or omission. Not only is the authenticty stated in this passage, but also the reason:

3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
3:17
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So, it is good for all of those things, and as good as right from God's mouth. Inspiration means "God breathed."

Wow. I guess some pilots do have a God-complex.

That would only be true if I made all of this up. Sadly for some, I did not.

 

[slide33]

You are wrong because the Bible says so

Yes, I know. I am wrong because the Bible and Timebuilder say so.

Here's some other things the bible says:

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40
People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 4:11

Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17
Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30

etc. etc.

ok. no more debating with zealots - bed time.

 

[Dizel8]

"Oh Cheer up Brian,you old bugger, it's not so bad you know. You come from nothing, you end up as nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"

"Your death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parent land from the hands of the Roman Imperialist aggressors, excluding those concerned with drainage, medicine, roads, housing, education, viniculture, and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of Jews of both sexes and hermaphrodites. Signed on behalf of the P.F.J., etcetera.' And I'd just like to add, on a personal note, my own admiration for what you are doing for us, Brian, at what must be, after all, for you, a very difficult time."

 

[SATCFI]

Dear SATCFI,

Where can I go and get qualified to judge who goes to hell and who doesn't? From your posts, you seem to have this qualification. I think it could be a useful thing to have.

Slide 33,

I am not qualified to judge anyone. God is the only judge we need be concerned with. I am also not the one who says the only way to heaven is through Christ. Those were His words, not mine. I just happend to believe Him on this.

 

[SATCFI]

Yes, I know. I am wrong because the Bible and Timebuilder say so.

Here's some other things the bible says:

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 (Actually says "Do not MURDER")
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40 (As they also do today...God gave us free will."
People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44 (This is the Holy Spirit...he will not come into to you until you ask him to.)

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 4:11

Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17
Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30

etc. etc.

ok. no more debating with zealots - bed time.

 

[Timebuilder]

Slide, I am just the messenger. I'm not saying anything to you on this topic, other than was is said to me. It is the Great Commission being delivered that you don't like.

I think that, to this day, I have yet to start one of these threads. I'm happy to meet the challenges, though.


You will only find what you think are inconsistencies if you don't study to find the meaning of scripture. Presently, this attitude fits your intent.