GIV vs. CL604?

[Bumz_Rush]

cockpit space

Sorry to come in late, but for cockit space for average or larger crew members, the Challenger range wins all the time against the Falcon, and G4 G4SP.

The G550 is almost as spacious for the drivers as the Challenger range.

So if your butt is challenged, or your legs are longer than needed, the Challenger is the answer......

 

[typhoonpilot]

Guys this is a trick question. What he was being asked is what do you think I should buy. What type of trips are presently being done and what does the next two years of trips look like. Unless you are carrying more than 8 passengers or doing a great deal of international flying on a very regular basis, there isn't a major benefit to getting those aircraft. At a former company, I recommended a much smaller aircraft than the boss wanted. They made the purchase based on that recommendation, they still have the aircraft, they are very happy with it and the department is still operating, despite 9/11 and a business down turn. And the aircraft recommended is capable of doing 100% of all the trips non-stop.

This is the best answer so far. Get the airplane that makes the most sense and will be the most reliable and affordable for the mission.

TP

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Departed the UK with 11,700 lbs of fuel (max minus 400 lbs) bound for Cairo. Climbed straight to FL410 after being held down at 5000' by London for a few minutes. No struggling involved (especially if you're comparing it to a Challenger). ISA +5 at altitude, and accelerated to .81 immediately then .83 within 45 1 hour, burning 890lbs/hr per side. Temps went to ISA so we asked and received non-standard FL430, maintained .83 burning about 850lbs/side. FL450 was achievable but would mean slowing to .80 mach and winds slackened off.





So basically, the answer to my question is NO. Even with the better 2000EX you cant leave with full full, climb into the 40's and reach red line.

Its not a 747. There is no reason one should not be able to do this. You buy a bizjet to fill it up, climb up above weather, traffic, and tracks - and get there fast. God forbid its an ISA+15 night in S America. Be fun to trudge throught he storm tops all maxed out at FL360...not...How about leaving a tech stop (like Shannon) are you going to be above the tracks at your desired altitude and airspeed by your entry point? Sunds like a struggle to me....maybe Shanwick will just lump you in with the airliners at FL3xx. Enjoy the bumps...

It just tells me, once again, its a typical underpowered Dassault product.

Dont get me wrong. Its a reliable airplane - starts every time, simple systems, built tough....and if you have that toted deisre to leave a 2500' strip in the mountains and make NY or LA - heck, buy the short field Falcon..oh...and it sips fuel.....easy at the pump.....saves money...a bizjet braggin about fuel economy....great.

I just dont see it as a performer by any means...

line it up next to the other medium-long range bizjets (think G300-450) and it just cant win!!

 

[CatYaaak]

So basically, the answer to my question is NO. Even with the better 2000EX you cant leave with full full, climb into the 40's and reach red line.

Its not a 747. There is no reason one should not be able to do this. You buy a bizjet to fill it up, climb up above weather, traffic, and tracks - and get there fast. God forbid its an ISA+15 night in S America. Be fun to trudge throught he storm tops all maxed out at FL360...not...How about leaving a tech stop (like Shannon) are you going to be above the tracks at your desired altitude and airspeed by your entry point? Sunds like a struggle to me....maybe Shanwick will just lump you in with the airliners at FL3xx. Enjoy the bumps...

It just tells me, once again, its a typical underpowered Dassault product.

Dont get me wrong. Its a reliable airplane - starts every time, simple systems, built tough....and if you have that toted deisre to leave a 2500' strip in the mountains and make NY or LA - heck, buy the short field Falcon..oh...and it sips fuel.....easy at the pump.....saves money...a bizjet braggin about fuel economy....great.

I just dont see it as a performer by any means...

line it up next to the other medium-long range bizjets (think G300-450) and it just cant win!!

You'd have to refresh my memory as to what Mmo and max certified altitude are on the Challenger. I don't recall it being a high-flying, shlt-hot rod, but perhaps I was going so fast, so high, it stripped away those particular brain cells along with the others that would recall pulling the thrust levers back to stay below the barber pole (um..right). Maybe I'm getting my numbers mixed up, but I thought the max alt. of the 604 was FL410 (someone correct me if that's wrong).

We see ISA+15 (and higher sometimes in the climb) here in the ME Sandpit, and like I said never recall not being able to make FL390 or FL400 initially maintaining .80. Nope, we can't do .855 to .862 at max weight, and now I'm secretly very ashamed of that. Boo hoo I'm just not flying a real jet!

No 2,500' strips around here..they don't build them that short ( I have seen some driveways that long). But if being able to get out of medium-length runways with relative ease when the OAT is in the +45C to +50C range as it routinely is here for half the year with enough gas to go someplace, then I guess I don't mind being "underpowered" if the other choice is a ground-loving Bombardier hog.

Until you, I've never met a pilot that didn't give a thought to BFL as it relates to operational flexiblity, but I suppose it's possible that I've been mis-prioritizing over the years. I should have been worrying about those tenths of a mach number instead. Why, that could mean a whole extra 15 knots or so if I'm slowpokin' along .81 or .83. No doubt when I'm at FL430 or FL450 at .81 or .80, I'm just a friggin' high altitude road block!

I'm sure the G-300/-450 outperforms the 2000 or EX in the max-weight, high-speed, high-alt cruise regime, but it should for the extra $$$. According to you even heavy it shrugs-off ISA +15 no sweat in the 40s and you have to rein it in to prevent overspeeding, so that's pretty impressive not many aircraft will do that..Challengers certainly not. I admit that I don't have what anyone would call "experience" in Gulfstreams, just a few hours of G-1V stick time after some bounces around the patch. But aside from great climb perf I do recall it handles like a truck...kind of Westwind-y, in fact. That doesn't really generate (for me anyway) a woodie as far as classifying it as a "pilot's airplane". I did notice that you avoided the proven floating performance of each, so the Falcon is clearly superior in terms of being a "pilot's boat".

One thing for sure, you'll never hear any pilot who's flown all three saying "Gee, I sure wish this Falcon flew more like a Gulfstream or Challenger". I'll just have to go seek self-esteem counseling on that Mmo thing though. Perhaps Oprah will listen.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I did notice that you avoided the proven floating performance of each, so the Falcon is clearly superior in terms of being a "pilot's boat".

Quite possibly the dumbest quote I've ever seen. RR engines are very reliable (statistically the MOST reliable in history). I'd rather fly an airplane that doesn't NEED to float. That crash into the lake (Jet Aviation, years ago) was CFIT. What you're saying about floatation is sort of like choosing less of an airplane because it is stronger if you run it into a mountain. I won't do either and I'll always pick the strongest, most reliable, and, yes, American airplane!

CatPuke, If you are thinking about landing your plane on the water, I sure don't want to fly in it, or with you.

Ace

 

[CatYaaak]

Quite possibly the dumbest quote I've ever seen. RR engines are very reliable (statistically the MOST reliable in history). I'd rather fly an airplane that doesn't NEED to float. That crash into the lake (Jet Aviation, years ago) was CFIT. What you're saying about floatation is sort of like choosing less of an airplane because it is stronger if you run it into a mountain. I won't do either and I'll always pick the strongest, most reliable, and, yes, American airplane!

CatPuke, If you are thinking about landing your plane on the water, I sure don't want to fly in it, or with you.

Ace

Well, the Falcon that ended up in the drink got there because they were going to run it out of gas and I do believe that all engines including mighty Speys and Tays will "fail" in that circumstance. A planned ditching would also be considered CFIT, or rather, a CFIW event. Hey, I'm no France-fan, but if Falcons are flimsy, that's news to me and pretty much everyone else. If you took the "pilot's boat" thing seriously, well... I seriously don't know what to say.

Don't want to fly with me?....sounds good, Ace, because I prefer to fly with people who have a sense of humor, and I'd obviously drive you crazy with my "dumbness" anyway. You should hear my theories on frozen-water Glacier Landings.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Well, the Falcon that ended up in the drink got there because they were going to run it out of gas and I do believe that all engines including mighty Speys and Tays will "fail" in that circumstance. A planned ditching would also be considered CFIT, or rather, a CFIW event. Hey, I'm no France-fan, but if Falcons are flimsy, that's news to me and pretty much everyone else. If you took the "pilot's boat" thing seriously, well... I seriously don't know what to say.

Don't want to fly with me?....sounds good, Ace, because I prefer to fly with people who have a sense of humor, and I'd obviously drive you crazy with my "dumbness" anyway. You should hear my theories on frozen-water Glacier Landings.

If you call that a sense of humor, you've got bigger problems.

Oops, I almost forgot the smily face

Ace

 

[CatYaaak]

If you call that a sense of humor, you've got bigger problems.

Oops, I almost forgot the smily face

Ace

Well of course I have bigger problems... for instance, there's people around here that would just love to cut my head off or at least shoot me, it's dark, and right now I've suddenly realized I need to go out on the crowded street to buy some smokes. Cigarettes can cause death, but isn't it incredibly funny how they can do it in so many different ways? The big problem, of course, is that I might get there and they won't have my brand.

While I'm out on my stroll, however, I'll focus on what's important and wrack my brain on how to tweak that extra .02 or .03 mach out of my little, sweet-handling French Love Machine. Maybe I'm trimming it wrong?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

eh - dont sweat it yak...

you aint trimming it wrong, its just an underpowered French piece of crap.

simple as that.

(but it floats like no other!!!) - so...if you hit the lottery - inquire with Dassualt about building your boat.....and Gulfstream about building your corporate jet...

.

PS - lay off the smokes man, they'll get you before the fundamentalists do...

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Well of course I have bigger problems... for instance, there's people around here that would just love to cut my head off or at least shoot me, it's dark, and right now I've suddenly realized I need to go out on the crowded street to buy some smokes. Cigarettes can cause death, but isn't it incredibly funny how they can do it in so many different ways? The big problem, of course, is that I might get there and they won't have my brand.

While I'm out on my stroll, however, I'll focus on what's important and wrack my brain on how to tweak that extra .02 or .03 mach out of my little, sweet-handling French Love Machine. Maybe I'm trimming it wrong?

Hmmmm. Took me 30 years to get off the smokes and only 5 to get out of the Falcon. Of the two, the cigs will kill you.

Now you've got me curious, do you look for sense of humor or quality of airmanship in your co-pilots / co-captains (cause mine's kinda a dud on the road but really knows his way around the plane).

Ace

 

[semperfido]

you guys really don't need to dis each other and each others planes. i don't think you would do it if you all were face to face--- just try and keep it real.

BUT the G is still King -- it is true and you know it

 

[crash-proof]

WsoD

tsk, tsk, what a shame, not one mention of the Legacy here. Oh well, another missed opportunity.

 

[Flying Illini]

tsk, tsk, what a shame, not one mention of the Legacy here. Oh well, another missed opportunity.

...until now. LMAO!!

 

[CatYaaak]

Gulfstream200,

If I hit the lottery and decide to go fast and burn lots of gas, I'm not going to be screwing around with anything less than a surplus F-104 complete with downward-firing ejection just to keep it racey. If I want to go slower I'll bow to the Gulfstream->Grumman lineage (happy?) and go the F9F Panther route because chicks at airshows really think that dark, Navy blue paint is pretty.

But to he11 with it..this jet-stuff is far too stressful and I'm obviously doing it wrong. I have half a mind to hang it all up, buy a horse ranch out in Wyoming with a Waco in the barn for the days I want to check out my spread or chase the herd around to exercise 'em, and perhaps take a part-time job flying blimps. For traveling any distance, it'll be via one of those private, luxury train cars I'll have lying around on a nearby spur.

This site needs a Blimp category anyway. By default I'll have to moderate, post to Nobody for awhile, and finally banish me to the penalty box for all eternity after making fun of myself for timing approaches with a calender.

 

[semperfido]

But aside from great climb perf I do recall it handles like a truck...kind of Westwind-y, in fact. That doesn't really generate (for me anyway) a woodie as far as classifying it as a "pilot's airplane". I did notice that you avoided the proven floating performance of each, so the Falcon is clearly superior in terms of being a "pilot's boat".

One thing for sure, you'll never hear any pilot who's flown all three saying "Gee, I sure wish this Falcon flew more like a Gulfstream or Challenger". I'll just have to go seek self-esteem counseling on that Mmo thing though. Perhaps Oprah will listen.

It is true that a falcon has THE best handling qualities--- but who cares about that. I would rather have the power. BUT if I needed a job I would love any of em.

If there was a g4sp, challenger, f900 on the ramp and I was asked to pick one to fly for the next 10 yrs?----- NO Brainer. The g4sp wins. I am rated in all three and the G is just a better all around machine.