Getting out???

[BH618]

I am a T-37 IP and a former 141 driver. I am at the crossroads of what to do next. My options right now are to try to extend one year at my AETC assignment and be at a position to get out, or take an assignment, probably to the C-17. The pros and cons to each is that if I take the C-17, I will be gone almost 3/4 of the year. It will take my commitment to Aug 07. If I extend where I am at until Jan 05, that will get me a year to put in an application to SW (like everbody else). If I choose the assignment and get out in 07, hopefully the other airlines will be hiring. If anyone has any insight on the AMC community and what I can expect, I would appreciate it. As individuals waiting for airline jobs, does anybody have any insight on this decision?

 

[CCDiscoB]

Take the Assignment

What if nothing is happening next Jan? Now you've just wasted a year flying the f-n Tweet. Go get the glass cockpit experience and let the industry settle down.

There are thousands of dudes trying to get on at SWA. You may or may not get the call, and that maybe into a year long pool.

No personal interest here, I'm not even trying for SWA. I've been waiting for JetBlue to call for the past year and half and we all know what Fed Ex is up to.

 

[DHPope93]

More info

Questions:
1) How much time do you have in?
2) Family situation? (i.e. spouse employment, kids)
3) Any interest in Guard/Reserve?

For now, I'll assume you've been in approx. 10-12 years and have familial/financial flexibility. I'd say extend for a year on the Tweet while you start rushing Guard/Reserve units. During that year, stock up cash in a safe account for supporting your transition. Being "out" will give you flexibility to pursue whatever airline you have your heart set on, plus flying TDYs are plentiful in heavy units (from my limited research) these days. We've got 4 guys (counting myself) recently off of active duty and bumming it, and it's "so far, so good." It's not for everyone, though. I'll be in the SWA pool for 2 years before it's all said and done, and I'm actually better financially now than a year ago (mostly due to a whole lotta man-days and being activated since Feb).

If this isn't doable for you, but you still want some flexibility, get the C-17 in and take the 5 year bonus (they still offer that, don't they? to '08/'09. The worst should be over by then [knock on wood]. Of course, you might end up liking the -17 and deciding to stay to 20.

AMC Community? Busy as hell. Name the plane, they're humping all around the world.

Hope this helped.

Peace,
DP

 

[Yahtzee]

No Trade Clause...

No disrespect to CCDiscoB, but I'm with DP on getting out and going to a Reserve or Guard unit. Everyone's situation is different, but you seem to have at least three options:

1) Take an assignment now and sign a 5 year bonus (bad call in my mind)

2) Take an assignment now and don't sign any bonus (better than option #1)

3) Stay in the Tweet and apply to Reserve and Guard units where you want to fly. If you don't find a Reserve or Guard unit where you'll enjoy flying and can support your familiy while staying current, then you could then take an Active Duty assignment. I expect open slots at many units when the deactivations start happening. The folks who punch from these units will create the holes you may be looking to fill.

In addition, if you wait long enough in the Tweet and get to five years, you're likely to get what I have termed the "No Trade Clause". If you're looking to avoid Active Duty AMC, this is the way to do it. (AFPC will most likely keep you in AETC for good due to your C-141 background.)

All the 141 guys at CBM got the "Heisman" when they asked about going back to the C-17. Post 9/11, the "No Trade Clause" deal has happend to several former T-1 co-workers including at least five 141 pilots, a 130 pilot and a 135 guy. The 130 & 135 guys were out of their MWS for nearly five years. One guy went to Pensacola (not Whiting) to fly T-34s, while the other guy went to PIT and is in his fifth year in the T-1. While it is true, some 141 guys are going back to training in the 17, the training is somewhat backed up and the C-17 manning at Altus is roughly 65% according to some of the C-17s IPs at Altus. Last year, the C-17 couldn't absorb all the former 141 pilots. This is most likely still the case. The 141 guys in my squadron all went to various assignments, including T-1 PIT, and a KC-10. At least two of 141 guys separated. Not a single T-1 IP (other than FAIPs) from CBM has gone to C-17 training since at least July 1999.

I punched in Mar after nearly 12 years cause it "Ain't About The Money"...It's about life and chasing a dream. I want to work for SWA, JetBlue, FedEx, or UPS. Those are the only companies I've applied to and would be blessed to be at any of them. In the meantime, I'm blessed with a great Reserve unit that has plenty of flying to go around. I've always believed you should stay or punch without looking at any bonus (five years or longer). For me personally, the bonus or lack of it had nothing to do with my decision to stay or leave.

Finally, there are opportunities in the worst of times, and right now it seems very few people are getting out. The folks who do are most likely either in a pool (SWA, FedEX, UPS), or they believe the economy will turn and the likes of SWA and JetBlue will continue to grow.

Best wishes in your decision. Whatever you do, once you make the call, press on and don't look back.


Yahtz

P.S. DP, thanks for the info on Pacer Crag climb gradient. I knew you would be the man to ask. The dude gives his thanks. Great to hear from you again and look forward to seeing you in a SWA uniform real soon.

 

[llowwelll]

Brad,

Obviously your decision is a personal one and only you can make the decision based on what you know is true about your life and your circumstances. I say that because I don't want you to think that I'm pushing anything on you . I'm just going to tell you what I did in your situation and why. I know that what's best for me may not be for anyone else.

Having said all of that, I got out in April. I'm now with a Reserve squadron and haven't had a problem with money yet (I've been an active duty Reservist most of that time). Just like Yahtzee said, though, it's definitely not all about the money. I agonized over the decision quite a bit, and here in no particular order are some of the reasons I got out:

1) Didn't have the desire or drive to do what was needed to advance as an AF officer. I could go on forever about this but I think you know what I'm talking about.

2) Wanted to be able to pick where I live. Wanted our son to grow up knowing his grandparents and cousins.

3) Staying in meant going to a C-17 or some other heavily deployed MWS. Did not want to deal with that for the next three years minimum.

4) Felt like the economy was on the cusp of an upswing (still think so). In my mind, the current downturn started in Mar 2000 when the stock markets began to crash. It's been more than three years since then and I think chances are strongly in far of an economic recovery in the next couple of years.

5) While I don't think there's any realistic chance of new hiring at any of the majors for the next several years, I do think it is realistic that a military pilot with significant experience in multiengine heavy jets will get hired by the likes of JB, SWA, or ATA, another LCC, or a corporate outfit, or some other organization within the next couple of years. Getting out now positions me to take advantage of any hiring opportunities that come along because I will be available vs locked into an ADSC.

6) A very minor consideration for me was that when I graduated from UPT eight years ago, AF pilot production was at a very low point and stayed that way for a couple of years afterward. Plus, relatively few pilots are choosing to leave active duty right now. Getting out now allows me to take advantage of these demographic trends vs competing against the bow wave of people that came through three or four years after me and will be getting out in a couple of years when the economy is better. I do realize that you could argue that any advantage this offers is more than offset by the thousands of furloughed pilots out there.

7) Wanted to have the chance to explore other opportunities if I felt like it. Like going to school or perhaps starting a business or traveling...who knows...the point is I can if I feel like it.

8) The Reserves are a GREAT insurance policy. If nothing works out, from everything I see/hear, I can support my family with the Reserves. It seems there will be no shortage of work for the Reserves for the foreseeable future esp if Bush keeps knocking off countries like he has been.

9) Here's a story a guy in my Reserve unit told me that helped:

I could've gotten out back in 92 when nobody was hiring. I was all set to do it, but I f#@*ing panicked and stayed in. Took a three year assignment. A buddy of mine went ahead and got out. He didn't find anything for about a year and a half but ended up getting hired by Airline X (I forget which one). So, I got out three years later, got hired at Airline Y (sorry, I forget which one again). Now, I'm getting furloughed and my buddy is way far up on the seniority list because he got out when I should have.

So, anyway, hope some of this helped. I know it's a tough decision. Good luck with it Brad! It'll all work out.

 

[BH618]

Thanks llowelll

It does sound like the exact situation that I am in right now. I have been agonizing for about 5 months on what to do. I agree that having the breathing room to find opportunities is a great thing. Hopefully the reserve thing here will work out. They are full, like everybody else.

I really appreciate the advice and that is the way I was leaning anyway, but it does help to get other perspectives; especially from those who have been there. Thanks again.

 

[Zulu]

BH,
I can tell you from personal experience that being locked into an ADSC when you want to get out and move on is not a lot of fun. I'd say stick with the Tweet for another year (building multi turbine PIC time -- looks just as good on an app as a C-17), and make yourself more marketable. Once you start looking, you'll see that there are lots of different options out there -- even if your SWA and Reserve plans don't work out, you may find that working for a quality regional supplemented with a non-flying Guard/Reserve job (there are tons out there) can make ends meet while keeping you competetive once hiring picks up.
Worst case you spend another year in the Tweet, nothing pans out, and then you take that C-17 -- sure beats being locked into an ADSC while other guys get "your" dream job.

Good luck,
Z

 

[peepsmover]

Press On

Select the path that gives you the most direct vector for being hired. They fly the t-37 in the reserves too, right? If not then go to a unit that will be eventually tranistioning to the C-17, I believe March reserve 141 unit is slated to do that, so you get the in because you are a former 141 driver and you can play that out rather nicely foing to 17 school, until you get hired for an airline job. Good luck!

 

[Benhuntn]

I have been in the SWA pool for 18 months. I am anxious to get going but the draw back is I have turned down jobs for small companies. I retired from the AF 12 months ago so I have the luxory of a retirement income that allows me to wait. It will also support me when I am laid off. If I were you I would take the assignment, gain as much experience as possible, and then retire and join the airlines down the road. I was in a squadron that had 8 pilots leave the AF in 01. All went to either UAL or American. By years end we had 6 of them back in the squadron to stay for the rest of their 20. Just a thought good luck.

 

[Hdawg]

I'm in the same boat. All good info posted above. I had about 8 friends get out 3-5 years ago and most are back in, those who are not are in the Reserves or Guard. On the bright side two guys got out this year and both were hired by ATA, one has stayed at ATA the other went to Jet Blue. Timing is everything.

 

[Boxboy]

All really outstanding post guys and gals! I couldn't help but jump in and toss my .02 since I was in the same situation this time last year.
If you have the $ saved, I would stronly recommend getting out. I really enjoyed flying tweets as my last assignement but if you do not want to take the road to be the "officer" that the AF leaders preach about (do as I say, not as I do kinda folks), it's just a paycheck for pain. I chose quality of life and my family.
I think it's smarter to make yourself available for the airline when the time comes, whether it's 1 year or 7 years from now. If you want to chase your dream job of flying for the majors, I would jump ship now and never look back. Most of the airlines nowadays open their application windows at certain times as they need pilots, so keep your eyes peeled. If you have a friend at an airline, have them keep a close watch. It's all about networking!
One positive note about the major airlines: most of the airlines do not like the idea of hiring a furloughed pilots, so I wouldn't be too worried about competing for a job with a furloughed pilot. This is, atleast, the case where I work. Alot of the furloughed pilots from the big three don't seem to want to give up their seniority number.
Definitely find yourself a reserve/guard job if you are unable to find a flying job. With your 141 experience, check with the 729th AS at March ARB. They are converting to C-17s next year sometime. The DO/CC's number is (909)655-2010/5503. The cost of living out towards March ARB is still pretty reasonable.
I know how you feel, but keep the faith! That dream job is well worth the effort! Wish you the best!

 

[AlbieF15]

As long as we're all throwing in our 2 cents from the peanut gallery...

Benhuntin mentioned guys who got out then got whipped and went back in. Did you catch that? They GOT OUT then GOT BACK IN. Other than the "ah @#%$ it didn't work out" factor, what does getting out and going back in cost? Some answers I can think of (but guys who've done it can probably answer better...) are:

BONUS-well.. you may not get one. Also hearing rumors even dudes who stay in may not get one in the following FYs, but we'll see....

CAREER PROGRESSION..yes, getting out now will likely keep you from being a Sqdn CC or Ops Grp Commander. If you are on the fence about getting out, I doubt those are your goals anyway...

I'd cast a wide net at ANG/Reserve units, and keep my options open. Work like a dog until your last day of active duty, however, in case you ever want to go back to the AF. I don't know where the shortages are right now, but it seems the AF always needs T-37 IPs, so if a year or two from now you change your mind perhaps you could go back on active duty. In the meantime...network and lobby and keep your options open.

Good luck--if it was an easy call there would likely be a lot more guys out here right now!

 

[CODs4ever]

BHarris,

I'm in a similar situation myself. However, I have decided to jump ship (no pun intended since I am in the Navy). Here are my reasons:

1) Staying in means going back to sea/deployment. These days the Navy is sending people out there for anywhere from 6-10 months.

2) I am starting a family and would rather be home to see my kids, wife, etc.

3) I believe in getting into the market when it's down, same with airlines. People that bought stock in 1999/2000 probably got burned in the same way as pilots who got hired by the BIG airlines during the same time. The guys who still have jobs with AAL, UAL, NWA, CAL, etc. probably got on in 1994-1997. People who bought stock in the market in 1994 and sold in 2000 made big money.

4) Some airlines are/will be hiring (SWA, JB, maybe FDX soon). These are the ones to push for. There are always random corporate jobs to be found and some of the regionals are hiring.

5) I have saved enough money that even if I take a low-paying job (for a while) I can afford to make the move.

Having said all that, the most important thing to remember is that if being an airline pilot is your goal, then go for it and don't look back. It's taking a risk, but nobody ever became rich by "playing it safe."

Good luck whatever your decision!

 

[Hdawg]

A little rumint,

Per the bonus dude at Randolph yesterday morning...serious rumors of the bonus going away " We have enough layed off guys to make it until the 10 ADSC for new pilots kicks in..."

"No one will no until mid to late October"

 

[AlbieF15]

And in 2010, when the next max exodus of active duty guys runs for the airlines, the leadership will say to them "why are you leaving guys...its not about the money!"

And the active duty guys will then say "but you all sure counted yours awfully close all those years..."

 

[Boxboy]

Yet, another fine idea by some fine field grader (McPeak clan?) looking to move up. These guys are no better than, in my humble opinion, airline upper management. It's sad to see history repeat itself for the worse.

 

[Hdawg]

By the way I left out "second reason"..."We need to increase the Nav bonus...."

 

[Jetdriver69]

Although I did 21 years between Army enlisted, warrant helo and AF jets it wasn't all good times. But it beats not having an income. Every single guy that got out from my last squadron before 9/11 have been furloughed and most of them have came back in to finish out 20 years. I'm about to be hired into a sweet corporate job but those are few and far between. I've been looking for the near perfect job for over two years and there really isn't a lot out there. There are a couple of guys in your same boat in my last squadron and they all decided to take the $ and security. Of course its your call, but to get out without a permanent job or retirement check is tough. You will burn through cash fast or will be forced to take a crappy job thats below your flying skills. The airlines might recover, but how may furloughed guys will come back before new guys are hired? I know with the AF you can have long separations from your family, but in some corporate jobs you can be gone half the month easy. Think long and hard about this before getting out.

 

[dgs]

I was one of the few guys who stayed in when all my classmates bailed in the hiring boom of the late 80's. I took a lot of heat from my buddies, but I still felt like I had things I wanted to do in the AF. The fact that I was the only pilot in my yeargroup at my base in my weapon system provided me some opportunities I never expected. I retired when I hit 20, got picked up by jetBlue and couldn't have been more fortunate. Here are a few things to consider:

1. Financial security. There's no subsitute for having an AF retirement. The AF also threw a lot of money at me to keep me in along the way--money that I put away for a rainy day. Now if anything happens, I know I can still make the house payment and put food on the table.

2. Devotion to duty. This is a touchy subject, so I hope I don't offend anybody here. You may have already had the opportunity to serve in a couple of our recent conflicts. My career gave me my share. After DESERT STORM, I felt I had filled my patriotism square and was ready to get out. I didn't realize then that my experience would be important later as I moved into leadership roles. I made some family sacrifices along the way, but I also think I made a difference in a lot of people's lives. Do you want to make a difference, or just survive the ride? I think my devotion to duty in the AF has translated well to jetBlue--where I do everything I can to make this company a success.

3. Timing. How can you predict what will be good or bad timing? Who knows? Most of my classmates are flying for Delta and now have a good 12-14 years of seniority. Most of them all still have jobs, but a lot of my other friends are on the street. I could never have imagined working for jetBlue in those days--it was still just a twinkle in David Neeleman's eyes. So despite all the naysayers and peer pressure to get out, I'm living the dream and couldn't be happier. You just never know what will happen, but I feel good things do come to those who serve.

Bottom line: It's a very personal decision that only you can make. I'm glad I stayed to 20. Things just happened to work out well for me. Nevertheless, it took a lot of sacrifice and was often a painful road to get here. If you are willing to make those sacrifices, you will be rewarded. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Goose17]

I feel your pain

I went through the same thought process when I separated in the summer of 01'. I got lucky as hell and ended up at FedEx. Here are some thoughts - many stated above as well.

When I got out, the industry was still pretty strong. I was separating from overseas and had ABSOLUTELY NO job prospects. I pinched some serious pennies built up the bank account, saluted smartly and bailed. I hit the ground running once back to the states. I did an airinc conference and interviews with 3 regionals. I got job offers from all 3 and I ALSO got some great interview experience. I was told to expect an interview at FedEx so I accepted a job offer with Northwest Airlink in Memphis to try to align the stars. I interviewed 2 weeks later and then got to await the news when Sept 11th hit. Long story short (not really), I got the job, but had to wait in a pool until the following year. I had no money coming in the front door and the stock market crash took a HUGE chunk out of the reserves. Did I mention that I had a pregnant wife (great timing) a 2 year old son and the only option for health care was to spend a butt load of $$ to extend my Tricare.

I collected some unemployment, got a job as a security manager and otherwise passed the time. FORTUNATELY I finally got in at FedEx in Jan 02. I am now in my second year and am in the green financially for the first time in a couple of years.

Would I do it all over again - you betcha! Would I do it today - not a chance! There are some airlines that are hiring, but the industry has been decimated! For every pilot job, there are 50 guys vying for it. Having ANY job these days is a feat in itself. I know tons of furloughed guys that are doing everything imaginable to pay the bills.

If faced with the same situation today, this would be MY gameplan:

1. Save money, save money, save money - it will give you options
2. Never give up an active duty job until you have a FIRM job offer from either a guard/reserve unit or another flying job such as a regional/national/major.
3. Be prepared to make 18K/year at a regional; see #1
4. If unable to secure a job on the outside, I would be real tempted to sign a 5 year bonus - nothing more. Take the $ from the bonus and start planning your escape 5 years down the road. Consider how close to retirement you will be in 5 years. It might be worth it to retire.

The decision is a BIG one. Choose carefully. There are pros and cons for staying in or getting out, but if you choose to get out, you loose ALL the protection of the military. It is kinda like moving away from mom and dad for the first time. You no longer have any of the help, services, or $$. Be prepared.

Goose17
FedEx