Getting out of aviation!

[A Passenger]

(this is not flame bait, I'm looking for an honset answer)

I'm considering getting out of aviation now (before I waste more time and money) because of the terrible state of the industry. The airlines are on life support, the majors aren't hiring now and won't be for a long time, regional pay sucks, and most airline pilots I have talked to absolutely HATE their job.

I don't know if I can just walk away from aviation though. I love flying and it is something I have wanted to do since I was a child. I have already invested time and money into this, including the "aviation" college, flight training, and ratings. I know it doesn't make sense to pursue a flying career right now, but I don't want to work for a corporation being stuck in a cubicle in front of a computer, or work in retail pushing some stupid product, even if the pay is better. I am NOT interested in a flying career for the money, but I would still like to be able to make a decent living. I will still be in college for another two years so there is a chance that the industry could come back, but it isn't likely. The military is not an option for me because of my vision problems.

Should I keep flying and just deal with the aviation industry and all of it's problems, or give up flying and go into a "realistic" career, and just settle for flying a C-150 around for fun twice a year?

 

[AnimalMother]

Stick with the F-150.

 

[learflyer]

I've got an F-150 and it certainly doesn't fly

 

[A Passenger]

Stick with the F-150.

LOL! I meant C-150, as in Cessna. F and C are next to each other on the keyboard.

 

[Flywrite]

My first instinct is to say "If you have to ask it probably isnt the career path for you".

However, it can be a tough industry and most of us have probably considered throwing in the towel a time or two.

Maybe you should finish college, or transfer to a non-aviation college for something else that interests you, but keep flying for the fun of it. At your age you can always go back into it.

 

[Wankel7]

I have noticed the same thing from other airline pilots.

I am rather young at 24 and flying cargo. Nothing gets under my skin more than disgruntled airline pilots telling me to leave now or get out now! I had two frac pilots telling me to get out now. I told them my dad was retired airline and they said....what he didn't try to talk you out of it?

It is my career, my love, and my life. If you want something bad enough you will get it. Just don't give up at the first sign of difficulty.

Wankel

 

[Pugh]

A lot of people ask this question I'm sure. I ask it myself quite a bit, because I keep getting motion sickness when I fly.

I'll stick to it, but unless I can get used to it by the end of this semester, I'm probably going to drop out.

I can't really give you any advice, because the ball is all in your court, and I'm even newer to this than you are, but I know its frustrating waking up to reality from our childhood dreams of flying 747s and banging hot flight attendents.

Whatever you do, just find something that you can at least wake up to and goto morning everyday. There are a lot of alternatives to cubicle work, ya just gotta find them.

 

[LewisU_Pilot]

Get out while you can!!!

One less person I have to compeat with for a job.

 

[UnstableAviator]

I've been CFI'ing for 3 years and have had a good time. So far, I've had nothing to complain about although I'm ready to move on to the next level.

I'm glad I've stuck with it. I worked 2 years selling pagers and cell phones before I started flying and there's no F'n way I'd go back to that life willingly.

 

[jetbluedog]

Yeah, hang it up. From today's news:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=&e=13&u=/ap/20050113/ap_on_bi_ge/airlines_outlook_2

I'm pretty lucky being an FO at Blu, but I won't put aviation on anyone

 

[100LL... Again!]

I would love to get out, aviation careers are often like a bad marriage.

It's often more trouble tha it is worth, and disappointments usually outweigh good times.

But change takes a lot of effort, and occasionally, the sex is very, very good.

So here I will remain.

 

[TIGV]

Hmmmmm Let me see...
I'm 32 years old, been flying for the last 13 years or so, had numerous jobs and moved numerous times...I own a $500 Ford Escort, have no benefits, have no job security and found out early on telling lasses at the bar you're a pilot won't get you laid.

ALL the mates I went to school with have half their mortgage paid off, own a couple of cars, have a life, a family, have been paying in to some kind of retirement for the last 10 years or so have been getting some kinda medical bennies since they left school.

What to look forward to in aviation:

No Job security, possibly the complete loss of your retirement, no social security by the time you need it, lots more different jobs before you: ( Big Quote ) " Make it big! "
The age 65 retirement rule adding 5 years to your pain, pain that you will be grateful as hell for by the time you hit 60 and your average bank balance hasn't topped a grand in the last 20 years.
You still drive a $500 car cos no payments is taking care of your bar-tab.
You get laid from time to time but it's out of sympathy or from wee young things that still think it's cool as hell to fly for a living.

The list goes on feel free to add on to it for a joke.

Seriously:

It's a great job, you will meet some of the best folks, ever, that you will not normally meet in any other career type because it takes either a complete idiot or a very special kind of person to swallow the above, throw a fond smile at their battered flight bag and with a spring in their step head into the wide blue.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Get out while you can!!!

One less person I have to compeat with for a job.

With spelling like that, you'll need an edge!

Just bustin' your chops, Lewis-

 

[generaltso]

Now is not a bad time to start. By the time you get your hours in, you may catch the next upswing.

 

[BD King]

Aviation is a way of life.

 

[Goose Egg]

A whole lotta love... (the song I'm listening to right now.)

...and most airline pilots I have talked to absolutely HATE their job.

I suppose it all depends on what their expectations are. For whatever reason, they thought that flying was a good career to get into. But when they finally arrive, it was not what they thought. Take everything that you hear with a grain of salt, and make your own mind up. Choose very carefully who you will listen to and who you will not. Don't let some embittered wannabe rock star tell you how to live your life. I have never met a crowd of more whiney people than in aviation, and that includes some very inauspicious jobs. Most folks are just glad to have found their niche in life and be making a sustainable wage. If there's anything that makes me regret choosing this as a career, it's all those people that b'yatch at the drop of a hat--the constant complaining grates at me sometimes. You'd think that people would be happy enough to do something that they actually like for a living, but somehow, somewhere, they lost focus of that.

I am NOT interested in a flying career for the money, but I would still like to be able to make a decent living.

It all depends on what you mean by "decent."

In their infinite wailings, some pilots miss the fact that there is no such thing as a "panasea" industry. I hear people say something like "If only I'd gotten into this, or gotten into that." Well, here's a newsflash; things are not necessarily any better anywhere else. Two years ago, I couldn't have gotten a janitoring job if I'd wanted one. If you think this market is saturated, try making a living with just a BS in Business or an MBA for that matter!

Anyway, you'll just need to take some stock and decide what is important to you. If you just want to fly and lead an otherwise normal life (welcome to the apparent minority), then stick with it. If $80K is the most you'll ever earn as a pilot, you've still got most of the working world beat.

Most of all, remember that flying is a job. Some guys out there think that they should be compensated when they sneeze. It doesn't work like that. Flying is a job, which means that it requires an obscure and heretofore underappreciated principle called work. Sure, it might be tough out there, and the industry might suck right now, but it ain't gonna kill us.

-Goose

 

[aa73]

It's really very simple: If you love aviation and can't see yourself doing anything else for a career, go for it. Your passion, if it's strong, should carry you through the hard times.

Most pilots on this board tell you to get out. I , on the other hand, see this current downturn as cyclic, as it's been for the past 50 years. Ever since the 60s, there have always been downturns in the early part of the decade, and hiring booms in the end of the decade. Every down turn ends with an up turn.

This industry will bounce back. We just need a little levelling. Granted, a lot will change, from fares to contracts to pay scales to work rules. But overall for me, this beats 9 to 5 anywhere. And I'm saying this stuck at the bottom of the employed AA seniority list. Most of my coworkers think I'm crazy.

I'll glady take less stability or less pay in exchange for doing something I love, instead of some office job that may pay more. That is a fact that few people grasp until they're old and it's too late. Follow your dreams, lad!

73

 

[xskywriter]

Some Advice, lets see. Aviation is probably one of the most demanding careers. Most of the replies I have read here are true. Do you see any of them leaving? Listen, if your in aviation you have to be in it for the love of flying. Too many young people go towards careers that are on the high end pay scale, as in aviation. Unfortunatly they turn out to be crying pilots who end of not happy at their job. The job/career is all about traveling and being away from home and the people we love the most. OK so the point is if you love to fly you will find a way to suceed at it. Its a very tough decision and only you and you only can make it. Just way the facts and what you want out of your life. GOOD LUCK!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Look into the past of the airline industry. Notice the ups and downs that have ailed this career in it's short history. It's a gamble... right now things are bad. But, they could be good in the future. Do you want to be in a good position when things get better?

I for one am gambling my youth on the hopes things will get better. Things could get better someday. Of course, they might get worse (can they?). It's just wait and see. I mean, at one point a few pilots made a gamble flying for a corndog operation called Southwest Airlines in the state of Texas. Look where they are now...

Nobody can predict the future. You take your chances, and try to have some fun along the way. I'd rather have a blast over the next 37 years of my career to end up in the bottom than to be miserable for the next 37 years of my career to end up at the top!

 

[Sticky]

You love to fly and want to make a decent living. A decent living is more than doable..just not in the first years.

I don't see your problem..

Wow. No matter how many times I see this, it never stops amazing me. Go ask the FlyI guys and gals about their decent living and how they expect to continue making that "decent" living for the next 5 years.

My advice to anyone thinking about pursuing a pilot career is DON'T. I don't feel this way because of any personal reasons, but rather simply for financial purposes. For example, most of these new hire regional pilots in their mid-twenty's won't be able to start investing/saving for retirement/kids college/home ownership for 5-10 years. I realize that some regionals are offering upgrades in less than 4 years, but that’s not the norm. If you do the math, being able to start a 401(k) with a company matching at age 25 as opposed to 30 could mean up to 1.5 million dollars a 60. If you wait to 35 to start a 401(k), it could mean over a 2.5 million dollar loss. That 5-10 year head start could really mean that much. Don't forget to take into consideration the realistic possibility of being canned after 5 years with a regional and having to start at the bottom again for another 5 years.



Of course I would never wish any fellow pilot misfortune, but at the same time, they can really ask for it. If all you value in your career are pretty jets and a sharp uniform, that’s all you'll ever have.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Age 35 to start a 401(k)? You can start a 401(k) as an FO. I have nearly $2000 in my 401(k) already after 1 1/2 years of employment as a regional FO. That should increase even more with my pay increase and company retirement program (matching/B-plan).

 

[Sticky]

Well sure, I'll bet that each pilot is in a different situation. Some can live at home with parents, others go the crashpad route. Of course, there are also pilots that have wives, ex-wives, kids and mortgage payments. I can't imagine being able to save money on 17,000-24,000 a year. BTW, the figures I presented are based on 2,400 a year into the 401K fund with the company matching another 2,400. In fact, that's the main reason I don't even apply to the airlines. If I did join the regionals, I'd loose an unbelievable amount of money at retirement.

 

[FN FAL]

Well sure, I'll bet that each pilot is in a different situation. Some can live at home with parents, others go the crashpad route. Of course, there are also pilots that have wives, ex-wives, kids and mortgage payments. I can't imagine being able to save money on 17,000-24,000 a year. BTW, the figures I presented are based on 2,400 a year into the 401K fund with the company matching another 2,400. In fact, that's the main reason I don't even apply to the airlines. If I did join the regionals, I'd loose an unbelievable amount of money at retirement.

You have to keep in mind that flychiga lives with his parents.

 

[PropsForward]

I've got an F-150 and it certainly doesn't fly

Yeah, but is is a hellua machine!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Yes, I do. I also commute, and am paying for a crashpad. I also have a car payment on my year old SUV, insurance, medical benefits, school loans and am paying off a computer. I also have a girlfriend, which we all know requires money.

I'm just offering a different perspective. You can't make a blanket statement and say "All regional FOs" like that. It isn't right we get paid like this, and it needs to change. But, in the short term, while this industry is in the tank, you can deal to a point. You just sometimes need to swallow your pride and do things you don't want to do... like move back home.

 

[TrafficInSight]

Age 35 to start a 401(k)? You can start a 401(k) as an FO. I have nearly $2000 in my 401(k) already after 1 1/2 years of employment as a regional FO. That should increase even more with my pay increase and company retirement program (matching/B-plan).

You don't have to wait until you're a professional pilot to start a 401k either. I started mine at a video store at 21, it's got over 2 grand in it now and I'm 24. Even if I don't plan to stay there the money is there, and the company matches it so it's like free money.

As far as aviation goes, It's my first love before it's my chosen career. The thought of spending my life in a cubicle is a dark one indeed. And really even a first year FO makes more than I make right now so it can't be that bad.

Now everyone wish me luck as my A&P writtens are next week.

 

[aa73]

Wow. No matter how many times I see this, it never stops amazing me. Go ask the FlyI guys and gals about their decent living and how they expect to continue making that "decent" living for the next 5 years.

My advice to anyone thinking about pursuing a pilot career is DON'T. I don't feel this way because of any personal reasons, but rather simply for financial purposes. For example, most of these new hire regional pilots in their mid-twenty's won't be able to start investing/saving for retirement/kids college/home ownership for 5-10 years. I realize that some regionals are offering upgrades in less than 4 years, but that’s not the norm. If you do the math, being able to start a 401(k) with a company matching at age 25 as opposed to 30 could mean up to 1.5 million dollars a 60. If you wait to 35 to start a 401(k), it could mean over a 2.5 million dollar loss. That 5-10 year head start could really mean that much. Don't forget to take into consideration the realistic possibility of being canned after 5 years with a regional and having to start at the bottom again for another 5 years.

Of course I would never wish any fellow pilot misfortune, but at the same time, they can really ask for it. If all you value in your career are pretty jets and a sharp uniform, that’s all you'll ever have.

Several FLyI friends of mine are sticking around in the industry, looking to start over at another regional or national. Why, because they love to fly - they aren't in it for the money. And they have been doing very well, financially - a lot of them bought houses in the late '90s and due to a booming market in Northern VA, are able to sell them at a HUGE profit. How did they buy those houses at regional pay? Because in the mid-late 90s housing prices were reasonable and many of these pilots were first time buyers, eligible for low down payment options. In other words, they took the steps to secure their future early on.

What you are talking about in your post is smart financial planning, which anyone can do, even at FO pay at a regional. I certainly did it when I was a regional FO and it has payed off for me. Those who don't find themselves at a huge disadvantage when times go bad. Most of us started investing in our 401k as soon as we were able to - after the 1st year.

My point is, you can make a decent living as a regional FO if you are smart about financial planning.

The one underlying factor that carries all of us through furloughs and downturns is passion for aviation. Ayone who doesn't have it will not survive in this industry.

 

[BD King]

Like I said aviation is a way of life. aa73 is also correct. It would appear that you are in a four year program somewhere. Just as a thought, pick up an A.S. in something, get your instrument ticket and commercial and CFI, and convert the last two years in getting an A&P. ..........You will now have marketable assets. Ya may not know
anything, but you will have marketable skills.

 

[FlyChicaga]

...You will now have marketable assets. Ya may not know
anything, but you will have marketable skills.

Cuz ya know, girls like guys with skills. Like numchuck skills, bowhunting skills, or computer hacking skills...

 

[ADF_Fixed]

I suppose it all depends on what their expectations are. For whatever reason, they thought that flying was a good career to get into. But when they finally arrive, it was not what they thought. Take everything that you hear with a grain of salt, and make your own mind up. Choose very carefully who you will listen to and who you will not. Don't let some embittered wannabe rock star tell you how to live your life. I have never met a crowd of more whiney people than in aviation, and that includes some very inauspicious jobs. Most folks are just glad to have found their niche in life and be making a sustainable wage. If there's anything that makes me regret choosing this as a career, it's all those people that b'yatch at the drop of a hat--the constant complaining grates at me sometimes. You'd think that people would be happy enough to do something that they actually like for a living, but somehow, somewhere, they lost focus of that.



It all depends on what you mean by "decent."

In their infinite wailings, some pilots miss the fact that there is no such thing as a "panasea" industry. I hear people say something like "If only I'd gotten into this, or gotten into that." Well, here's a newsflash; things are not necessarily any better anywhere else. Two years ago, I couldn't have gotten a janitoring job if I'd wanted one. If you think this market is saturated, try making a living with just a BS in Business or an MBA for that matter!

Anyway, you'll just need to take some stock and decide what is important to you. If you just want to fly and lead an otherwise normal life (welcome to the apparent minority), then stick with it. If $80K is the most you'll ever earn as a pilot, you've still got most of the working world beat.

Most of all, remember that flying is a job. Some guys out there think that they should be compensated when they sneeze. It doesn't work like that. Flying is a job, which means that it requires an obscure and heretofore underappreciated principle called work. Sure, it might be tough out there, and the industry might suck right now, but it ain't gonna kill us.

-Goose

Nice state statement Goose. I have been sitting at a cubicle for 5 years. now I am making not even half of when I first starting out. Not to mention there are folks making only a few dollars above minumum wages. And you are crying man. Get real.... by the way it took me two years to find something close to my field and I starting this monday. Where do you folks think that you can get pay for playing. flying, for me is dancing in the sun