Getting a 747 type

[The5th]

I am at a regional with plenty of turbine PIC 121 etc.. Would it be worth the investment to go get a 747-200 type and then try to get a job overseas? I know many asian airlines are looking for 747 pilots. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Draginass]

A type rating without at least 500 in type is worthless. Save your money.

 

[Varig]

Get it because they are hiring without time on type. I have been there knocking on their doors and know people who got hired with just the type rating. If you are going to do it, now is the time to get one.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

A very good friend of mine got a 747 type, and got hired at Polar (in the U.S., not overseas) a bit less than 2 years ago. He had no 747 time. It does happen, but maybe he was the rare case?

 

[sleepy]

Maybe you should spend the $$$ on a 737 type instead. Then go fly a Caravan for a few years and get on with SWA.

 

[leardrivr]

Anyone who spends there own money to get typed so an employer might hire them is nothing but a prostitute. I mean come on man! Why do think so many pilots get taking advantage of. Every time one of these wonder boys thinks he has found the fast track to career sucsess. He just makes it harder for the rest of us to get a fair wage. Come on board dude! Lets make the companys and the unions pay us to train in there equiptment. No pilot should ever have to buy he's job! No hard fellings dude!

Down with PFT!

Viva la resistance!

 

[The5th]

Thanks for your replies. Can anyone recommend a good place to get a 747 type?

 

[leardrivr]

Yes. Try your current employer! Do what I did get the job flying a classic 742 and wait you turn: or wait better yet. EARN the right to upgrade to Captain. Ill see you in panc!

Happy Contrails

 

[leardrivr]

Oh I forgot I need to update my aircraft experience:

B747 classic First Officer. Didn't need the type to get hired either!

 

[KC-10 Driver]

My friend went to Aeroservice in MIA. He was less than fully pleased with the school, but he did get his type.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I tend to agree with leardrivr on this one. Regardless of what Varig says it wouldn't be easy to get a job without time on type. 500 hours is the usual minimum but it could be 750 or even 1000+. What other experience did the guy without time on type who reportedly got hired have ? Maybe he had been an MD-11 or 767 Captain previously. He at least had some narrowbody command time if he was hired into the left seat. The other thing is that 747 Classic pay is much lower overseas than you would expect. Orient Thai is paying about $4000 to $5000 per month for Captains. Not a great return on investment and that on a dieing aircraft where the pay will only continue to erode. If you like flying for dirt bag operators in the $hitholes of the world then go for it, otherwise look at getting on with a U.S. cargo carrier and getting the training for free.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Varig]

I heard it from the chief pilot himself and as far as the experience goes, how about leaving a flight school and climbing into a 747???? The guy who started this thread I believe has some jet time as an FO so it should be even easier for him. My friends didn't get hired as captains so for those of you thinking he got hired as a captain with no experience, that's not what happened. And just for the record, it is common for low time pilots to start out as FOs in jets like a 737 outside of the USA.

 

[potrack]

The5th,

Ever look at Cathay Pacific? Big equip with little experience to get in right seat.
Possibly be US based.

 

[GCD]

leardrivr,

I'm curious, where do you work that did not type you in the 747? Do you fly only domestic US? If not you may be in violation in many countries.

 

[FoxHunter]

leardrivr,

I'm curious, where do you work that did not type you in the 747? Do you fly only domestic US? If not you may be in violation in many countries.

There is no, and has never been any requirement to hold a type rating to fly international. I flew as a DC8, and 747 as a F/O all over the world at the time I had no type on my FAA ATP. FedEx today does not type F/Os in either the 727, A300, or the DC10 and they all do some international flying. Yes, most other countries require a type, but the FAA does not, and that makes you good flying any place in the world. Your understanding is a common misunderstanding of the requirements.

 

[GCD]

FoxHunter,



That is true of "treaty" countries, not all countries.

 

[xdays]

There is no, and has never been any requirement to hold a type rating to fly international. I flew as a DC8, and 747 as a F/O all over the world at the time I had no type on my FAA ATP. FedEx today does not type F/Os in either the 727, A300, or the DC10 and they all do some international flying. Yes, most other countries require a type, but the FAA does not, and that makes you good flying any place in the world. Your understanding is a common misunderstanding of the requirements.

I believe that your understanding in incorrect. The aircraft you cited above all have F/E's. At least one of Fed-Ex's F/O's in a crew of three or more pilots, not 2 pilots and an FE, would have to be type rated to engage in Int'l. operations requiring three or more pilots. Below is the reference. Hope this clears it up.

"Sec. 121.437

Pilot qualification: Certificates required.

(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft."

 

[TexaSWA]

I believe that your understanding in incorrect. The aircraft you cited above all have F/E's. At least one of Fed-Ex's F/O's in a crew of three or more pilots, not 2 pilots and an FE, would have to be type rated to engage in Int'l. operations requiring three or more pilots. Below is the reference. Hope this clears it up.

"Sec. 121.437

Pilot qualification: Certificates required.

(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft."

I flew the 727 all over Europe for two years out of BRU with no type. I hope they dont come get me.

 

[FoxHunter]

I believe that your understanding in incorrect. The aircraft you cited above all have F/E's. At least one of Fed-Ex's F/O's in a crew of three or more pilots, not 2 pilots and an FE, would have to be type rated to engage in Int'l. operations requiring three or more pilots. Below is the reference. Hope this clears it up.

"Sec. 121.437

Pilot qualification: Certificates required.

(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft."

Yes, but the only time three pilots are required is when you exceed 8 block hours in 24. Very unusual with the A300/310 and in that case FedEx used another Captain. That no longer is the case since the A310 now overflys Iran on the DXB-CDG leg, which was the only leg the extra Captain was used. In the MD11 all F/Os are type rated because exceeding 8 or even 12 in 24 is the norm.

 

[FoxHunter]

FoxHunter,



That is true of "treaty" countries, not all countries.

I flew for Seaboard World, Capitol International, Evergreen, Flying Tigers, as a F/O without any type rating. In the case of Seaboard World and Capitol I held only a C&I ASMEL, no ATP. I have no idea who "non treaty countries" might be today, but I can assure you that having a type has never been a requirement.

 

[xdays]

Yes, but the only time three pilots are required is when you exceed 8 block hours in 24. Very unusual with the A300/310 and in that case FedEx used another Captain. That no longer is the case since the A310 now overflys Iran on the DXB-CDG leg, which was the only leg the extra Captain was used. In the MD11 all F/Os are type rated because exceeding 8 or even 12 in 24 is the norm.

We may be saying the same thing in a different way, but to clarify, earlier you stated that "There is no, and never has been any requirement to hold a type rating to fly internationally." Above you state that three pilots are required when block time is (scheduled) to exceed 8 hours in 24 hours. I would ask you why FedEx is type rating F/O's when, as you stated, it is not a requirement. Please read FAR 121.437 once more. Also, this reg was effective 3/12/97, so any reference to Seaboard is moot, as they were not in existence when the reg was in place. Any reference to aircraft that require an FE does not apply, as that situation comes under a completely different reg. As with any explanation of FAR's, it's probably all as clear as mud by now!

 

[FoxHunter]

We may be saying the same thing in a different way, but to clarify, earlier you stated that "There is no, and never has been any requirement to hold a type rating to fly internationally." Above you state that three pilots are required when block time is (scheduled) to exceed 8 hours in 24 hours. I would ask you why FedEx is type rating F/O's when, as you stated, it is not a requirement. Please read FAR 121.437 once more. Also, this reg was effective 3/12/97, so any reference to Seaboard is moot, as they were not in existence when the reg was in place. Any reference to aircraft that require an FE does not apply, as that situation comes under a completely different reg. As with any explanation of FAR's, it's probably all as clear as mud by now!

Both the MD11s and A300s at FedEx are two pilot aircraft. FedEx types all F/Os on the MD11. They do not type any F/Os on the A300. A good prtion of the time I fly with just a F/O, my last trip MEM-ANC, ANC-NRT, NRT-SFS-HKG all with two pilots, the remainder, HKG-ALA, ALA-CDG, CDG-MEM all with a RFO. The first of those actually did not require the RFO but we carry one. Now the A300 fleet are actually A300-600s, or A310s. No A300 F/Os are type rated normally, although there may be a few that work or worked in training that have the rating. The A300 flys all over Asia, and all over Europe and the Middle East with F/Os that are not type rated. They are trained to FAA F/O standards which is really no different than the MD11 type rated F/Os.

The deal is that there must be ONE type rated pilot on the flight deck at all times. If the block time exceeds 8 hours the Captain cannot be scheduled to to be in the cockpit in excess of 8 hours. FedEx could have decided to type rate only a portion of the MD11 F/Os and use them as just relief pilots. They have chosen to rate all because it makes scheduling a lot easier. Any F/O can be either a F/O or RFO, and any Captain can be a RFO.

Now I wish that there had been a requirement to type F/Os when I was doing it. It would have made my search for work duning furlough a lot easier. The requlation you quote was in force before I started with Seaboard.

 

[xdays]

Both the MD11s and A300s at FedEx are two pilot aircraft. FedEx types all F/Os on the MD11. They do not type any F/Os on the A300. A good prtion of the time I fly with just a F/O, my last trip MEM-ANC, ANC-NRT, NRT-SFS-HKG all with two pilots, the remainder, HKG-ALA, ALA-CDG, CDG-MEM all with a RFO. The first of those actually did not require the RFO but we carry one. Now the A300 fleet are actually A300-600s, or A310s. No A300 F/Os are type rated normally, although there may be a few that work or worked in training that have the rating. The A300 flys all over Asia, and all over Europe and the Middle East with F/Os that are not type rated. They are trained to FAA F/O standards which is really no different than the MD11 type rated F/Os.

The deal is that there must be ONE type rated pilot on the flight deck at all times. If the block time exceeds 8 hours the Captain cannot be scheduled to to be in the cockpit in excess of 8 hours. FedEx could have decided to type rate only a portion of the MD11 F/Os and use them as just relief pilots. They have chosen to rate all because it makes scheduling a lot easier. Any F/O can be either a F/O or RFO, and any Captain can be a RFO.

.

I'll try it one more time and then give you the last word, keeping in mind that I am responding to your claim that there never was a requirement to hold a type rating to fly international. FAR 121.437 addresses the requirement when a U.S. flag operation requires three or more pilots. Your A-300 has a flight engineer and does not require a third or relief pilot until scheduled flight time exceeds 12 hours in 24. Different reg. FedEx types MD-11 F/O's because having one additional type rated pilot on crew is a requirement of FAR 121.437 on international flights. Delta typed all 767 and 777 F/O's, domestic and international, because it was cost effective to do so. This reg was effective March 12, 1997, which I believe was long after Seaboard went out of business.
Hope that helps.

 

[FoxHunter]

I'll try it one more time and then give you the last word, keeping in mind that I am responding to your claim that there never was a requirement to hold a type rating to fly international. FAR 121.437 addresses the requirement when a U.S. flag operation requires three or more pilots. Your A-300 has a flight engineer and does not require a third or relief pilot until scheduled flight time exceeds 12 hours in 24. Different reg. FedEx types MD-11 F/O's because having one additional type rated pilot on crew is a requirement of FAR 121.437 on international flights. Delta typed all 767 and 777 F/O's, domestic and international, because it was cost effective to do so. This reg was effective March 12, 1997, which I believe was long after Seaboard went out of business.
Hope that helps.

Our A300s DO NOT, have never, or ever have been required, to have a flight engineer. The A300-600, and A310, the types that FedEx fly, is a two pilot aircraft, one Captain and one F/O. Now the original A300B4, that FedEx never operated did have a F/E. Again, Fedex operates the A300-600, A310 and the MD11 as two pilot aircraft. If either is going to exceed 8 hours block a third pilot is required. This two pilot A300 is flown in Europe, Middle East, Far East with Two pilots, Captain and non type rated F/O, no F/E. There is and never has been a requirement to have a type as a F/O for international flying. The regulation you quote, the basic requirement has been in effect since the FARs were first written. When you see a newer date attached to an FAR it is usually because a word or two has changed. It has alwas been if you exceed 8 hours you required three pilots. This goes back before FARs to CARs and the DC-4. You are corrrect that you can fly 12 block hours with two pilots and a F/E. When this is exceeded two of the pilots require a type. This has only to do with scheduled block time for international flights. As long as you do not schedule to exceed 8 block hours a type is not required domestic or international. Now a company may choose to type the F/O, but it has never been required.

BTW Seaboard never went out of business, they were bought by Flying Tigers in 1980.

 

[The5th]

...and all I wanted was a 747 type.

 

[Varig]

Check aeroservice and panam academy. I know they do it but don't know which is better.