Get a cargo job with low multi time??

another cfii

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I'm getting close to my 135 ifr min., but hasn't been succesful to build up my multi hours (<40 hrs). (I know i've pretty much begged everyone i know to let me sit right-seat any chance I got!) I'd like to ask everybody how's their path to building up their multi hours without instructing? (My place doesn't have the demand for multi students)

Do you recommend me to buy 100 block multi hours. (split with someone) from a fbo or buy it from a sic program? Would the latter look bad if i go to a regional interview later?

Please advice!!
 

Toad4

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Tough call...

I know how you feel. I got my first 135 job with I think 50 hours of multi engine time. I got my first jet job with 150 hours of multi engine time. I still only have 150 hours of piston multi.

The key is to get your 135 min. and then worry about your multi time. I don't recommend anyone ever pay for training or "buy" the position. You won't make enough at this level to afford it anyway. I know what it's like to be in your shoes, but most small 135 outfits expect the bare minimum as far as multi time goes (have the commercial multi but that's it). This is just my opinion but I think that as long as people will work for nothing or pay for the time then that is exactly what will happen. I think a smart cost/benefit analysis would find that paying $18,000 for an $11,000/yr job is bad business from the pilots end. Professionals don't pay to work. This is not a hobby.

Good luck to you and it's always a hard choice. Whatever you decide, do what's best for you.
 

falcondriver

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Start sending your resumes to future employers, as soon as you get your 135 mins, regardless of how much multi you have....I personally bought a little bit and got real lucky on the rest..
Good Luck
FD
 

Frac Daddy

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I agree with falcondriver. Get your resumes out there. You might be suprised because, as Toad4 said, some of these companies don't even expect more than your multi-comm. The freight company I flew for had a guideline of 50 hours multi, but the DO said he did not care if the ink was still wet on the multi ticket as long as the instrument skills were solid. His phliosophy was that you get could get a monkey up to speed quickly on engine-out procedures but pilots with strong instrument skills were hard to come by. By the way, one of my friends and I did build some multi time by renting a light twin. We got a sweet deal on a block rate and fuel at cost. We would fly somewhere cool, hang out and maybe party, and then go home the next day. We had fun and built multi time. If you are going to pay to fly, have fun, Rent from and FBO and go places. SIC programs are simply you playing to "fly the line". You will have plenty of time to do that later with someone paying you, not the other way around.;)
 
2

210FR8DOG

ME time, the catch 22

Another CFII,

Frac Daddy was right on. I'm at Flight Express and they only want the ME ticket. Thet'll train you in the Baron when its time anyway. Bad news is, you have to wait your turn for that ME time ( this is killing me !!!!!!!!!!!) but in the mean time you DO build a lot of IFR experience which will give you that much more confidence (SP?) when you get those extra levers. I like Flight Express for the most part. You can make some decent money here. But right now the upgrade time to Baron is about 9 months to a year depending on your willingness to move all over the place on a moments notice. Two guys just got Barons in about 5 months but they were definitely the exception, not the rule. Also, like Frac said, if your gonna go pay for ME time, just have fun doing it because I think your gonna need several hundred hours now to be competitive anyway. Once you get a Baron here at FE, its yours to keep so you will build ME time fairly quickly (60-90 hrs a month?) Be sure to check out Airnet and Central Air Southwest, although I don't think either of them are hiring right now. We have been hiring about 4-8 pilots a month even since 9/11. Good luck, Jeff
 

airpilot

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210FR8DOG

Is Flight Express actually hiring? I've been sending resumes everyway I know how and haven't received any calls. Sounds like a pretty good place to work, but need to get a call first... Any ideas?

Airpilot
 
2

210FR8DOG

yep

Airpilot,

Yep, I don't know how but FE has had at least one class a month of 3-5 pilots steady since 9/11. We have a lot of guys in hiring pools right now so it still looks pretty good for now. Question, with 2400 TT it seems you would go ahead and focus on regionals, if thats even where you want to go. A few hundred multi with that ATP and I would think you would be very competitive. Just keep hammerin at FE if thats what you want. Fax once a week or something. I got a call 2 weeks later after the first fax so I really don't know. I got lucky, I guess. I got hired Dec. 10, 01. I like it and I feel real lucky to have any flying job right now. I like it enough to hold out for my fav. regional, Comair. Hope this helps, PM if you want to. Jeff
 

reno

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ME Time

Ram Air (www.ramairfreight.com) requires the normal 135 min's and require a MEL rating, but prefer low multi time. They figure you'll stick around a bit longer than those who come with a few hundred multi hrs. 1200tt and < 100 multi with CFII/MEI and 75 hrs IMC score the best. Good luck.
 

airpilot

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Ram Air

I applied with Ram Air this evening and noticed that my score was only about 14. According to the statistics, I don't qualify. The only reason my score was so low was because I don't have any lance time. I do, however, have over 500 hours in arrows and other similar aircraft. Do you think I still have a chance with them? Besides all of that, are they hiring right now?

Airpilot
 

reno

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Ram Air Score

Airpilot,

Lance time adds a lot of score, but other things that weigh heavily are CFII (not CFI), MEI, TT < 2000, Total IMC, IMC last 90 days, and dual given for IFR/ATP. If you have all of the above but no Lance time you should still score okay. If you have CFI but not CFII and your time is over 2000, little IMC and so on thats why your score is low.

RAF is hiring, looks like the OCT class is now full, but usually one or two drop out before the class date because of getting another job or deciding the move is too much.

Another company around NC is Package Express based in CLT. They do the same work as RAF and may be hiring. I've never seen them advertise but I know a few of the pilots and they seem to like the same times as RAF but may not be so picky on the exact numbers.

Let me know if you have any other q's.

Reno
 

SDdriver

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I would for sure not buy SIC time with a company. It is no big deal if you want to buy some block time and split it with another guy and go fly and get some time that way, but DO NOT buy a job, that crap is ruining this industry. I got my job with 50 hours of multi, I built that riding SIC at a 135 charter company for a few bucks a trip, but I did get paid. I wirked in the office when they needed me to and hopped on every flight I could. You can do it, just be patient. SO many new guys get impatient and say screw it I'll just spend 18,000 and buy 250 hours at this job and then maybe i'll get hired. Keep your honer and get paid! If they won't pay you then they are not worth it! As the previous posters said,most small 135 freight outfits don't want a lot of multi time because they want you to stay for awhile. Have you tried that outfit in Kansas City that flies Commanders? I think they will take low time guys. Good luck and if you need any other help let me know.

SD
 

upndsky

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I'm one of those who just got hired by Ram Air. I applied before they changed to the new online application system, so I don't know how I would have scored using today's method. I had a grand total of 2 hours in a Lance but more than 250 hours in various pipers, including nearly 100 in a Seminole. I'm also local and I know that played a factor in them deciding to interview me. As you can tell by my profile, I also have a CFII and MEI which they seem to like. Total ME time when I applied was around 140 hours.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to starting class in October. Reno, it appears you fly for them. Any words of wisdom for a new hire? You can PM me if you'd like.
 

upndsky

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I forgot to add, but a month or so ago I ran into a pilot with Package Express and he said that they weren't hiring at the time. From what he said, they are not as big as Ram Air. It wouldn't hurt to try, though.
 

uavchaser

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How did I get an "8" on the Ram Air Freight app???
PA34...85
PA44...15
PA28...550
TT...1250
actual...45
hood...65

I don't get it.
 

airpilot

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Ram Air scoring

I emailed Jason at Ram Air to ask about the low scores. He said that the system is pretty new and they are still working out the bugs. Might not hurt to still send a resume. He didn't say to, but wouldn't hurt.
 

airpilot

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How long to wait?

upndsky,

How long after you sent your resume to Ram Air did you get a call?
 

Fr8Dog

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I just filled out a Ram Air application, just to see what I would get for a score on the thing, and it came out to a 14. I guess with 2400TT, 1000+ Multi, 135 current in multiple airplanes, and multi turbine PIC, I am not good enough to go work for them. Oh well to bad for me I guess.
 

upndsky

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Re: How long to wait?

airpilot said:
upndsky,

How long after you sent your resume to Ram Air did you get a call?
I waited a little less than a month. The "call" was actually an e-mail sent by Jason to myself and 7 or 8 others to inform us that we had been selected for a phone interview that would take place a week later. The phone interview was with Jason and it was really more of a conversation. I think he just wanted to know what kind of person I was and whether was enthusiastic about the job (which I am). From what I got out of the conversation, they're looking for pilots with a positive attitude who don't mind flying less-than-glamorous planes at less-than-glamorous hours of the day. At the end of the converstation I was offered the job.

I must add that I live in Raleigh and have known several pilots that used to fly for Ram Air in the past. I had also talked with Jason previously about an unrelated subject so I wasn't a complete unknown to them. I don't know how much that influenced them in deciding to interview me, but I know that it did help.
 
Last edited:

JediNein

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Howdy all!
I love being a sysop sometimes... I had some fun with Ram Air's scoring system.
The following is the code Ram Air uses to determine the score for the application.

function calcAll(form1)
{
with(form1)
{

score = 0

//score = score + (1 * (cfi.value));
score = score + (5 * (cfii.value));
score = score + (3 * (mei.value));

score = score + (2 * (total.value<2000));
score = score + (2 * (multitotal.value<200));
score = score + (2 * (actualtotal.value>50));
score = score + (2 * (actualtotal.value>75));

score = score + (5 * (PA32total.value > 25));
score = score + (7 * (PA3290.value > 25));
score = score + (3 * (PA34total.value > 25));
score = score + (5 * (PA3490.value > 25));

score = score + (5 * (PA28total.value > 100));
score = score + (3 * (PA44total.value > 25));

score = score + (3 * (instatp.value > 100));
score = score + (3 * (instatp.value > 300));

strength.value=score;
}

In English this scoring system states:
1. CFII is good, MEI not as good, CFI is ok. ATP and Commercial are worthless to the score.
2. Total time UNDER 2000. Multi UNDER 200. Actual IMC ABOVE 50 and more points if ABOVE 75.
3. PA 32, PA 32 (90 days) best, PA34, and PA 34 (90days) above 25 is good. PA 28 above 100 is ok, PA 44 above 25 is good. The best is PA 32 within the last 90 days.
4. Points for instructing instrument and ATP students above 100 hours, double points for above 300 hours.

PA 32 time in the last 90 days is the single most important item on their list. Time in type and instructing students count for more than actual IMC time.

Hope that helps.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 

JediNein

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Even simpler is:
76 hours actual
26 hours in the last 90 and total PA 32
26 hours in the last 90 and total PA 34
101 hours in PA28
26 hours in PA 44
301 hours instructing instrument and ATP students
CFII, MEI
Less than 200 MEL, less than 2000 total
oh yeah, and meet the 1201 total time.

Scores a perfect 50.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
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