Gemini Minimums

[30West]

I think the most important question one needs to ask is why an airline that is slowly shrinking would be at same time running so many new hire classes.

 

[2LT]

UPS is hiring...

Attrition...

The question UPS has is, could you please train them a little bit faster? Our simulator went down and we're getting really short on -11F F/O's. Thanks...

 

[RunningMan]

Hey guys, just to keep everything from becoming "dated"... Gemini is requiring a training contract at this time. It requires full pay back of all training costs if you fail to make it through training, are terminated, or leave voluntarily prior to one year. Just thought I would keep everyone up to date. Good Luck!

 

[Z_Pilot]

Hey guys, just to keep everything from becoming "dated"... Gemini is requiring a training contract at this time. It requires full pay back of all training costs if you fail to make it through training, are terminated, or leave voluntarily prior to one year. Just thought I would keep everyone up to date. Good Luck!

...Well, now I think I am less interested. Thanks for the update.

ZP

 

[Fedora]

Well, Z, I guess that shows a little bit of your true intentions if you are less interested now.
Gemini has been expending a great deal of money on training new hires, and a lot have left in six months or less. I can't blame them for doing something to get some of their money's worth. You should be able do do one year standing on your head! You've got to be pretty bad not to make it through Gemini's training, which is based on trying to get you though, not bust you out.
So all you guys who are planning to use Gemini as a "free type rating" stepping stone take heed!

BTW - I believe training pay is $50 a day, They put you up in nice long term stay apartment-type rooms with kitchenettes. A rental car per two person crew is included. Currently training for the 11 is in Long Beach, but I hear the sim might be moving to Miami. They were putting crews up at the Oakwood Apartments on the PCH next to Seal Beach. You can Google it if you want.
I, for one, am glad to see them doing something about these 3-6 month "wanna be's" using Gemini for a free ride. If you can't give us at least a year, move on and keep your hands out of our pockets.

I'll say it one more time for those who don't believe it. "Freight Dogging is not for everyone."
If you can't be away from your Mommy/Daddy/wife/kids/dog/cat or whatever for 18 days a month and the ocassional "back to back" 30 or more, than don't waste your time or ours.

 

[Z_Pilot]

Fedora-

I never stated that I am not interested....it just seems a little fishy that they would decide to now dump this contract on newhires. I have heard that the MD-11 is a difficult airplane, and I don't think that it is fair to enforce the contract if someone washes out. (As you can see, it potentially opens the contract to abuse: hire a pilot, have them sign a huge contract, wash them out, get the $$). On a side note, I have never busted a type ride or airline training.

However, I can see the company's position: pilots using Gemini to get a type rating and a job at UPS.

Ultimately I think the best solution would to become a more attractive employer (to retain pilots). First year pay is not the best, but it is on-par with your first year at most other majors/LCC. However, when you look at years 2-5, Gemini falls behind pretty quick. There really isn't a retirement program at Gemini. The biggest hesitation that I have is job security. Yes, I understand that it is always unsable at an ACMI because of the nature of the business, but Gemini seems to be returning aircraft (DC-10) and no official order for a replacement has been made.

I like the aircraft, scheduling, and destinations you guys fly to. I think I could make a career of it, but some things would have to be addressed.

And for the record, no, I was not looking at Gemini with the intention of getting the type and jumping to UPS.

ZP

 

[Z_Pilot]

BTW - I believe training pay is $50 a day, They put you up in nice long term stay apartment-type rooms with kitchenettes. A rental car per two person crew is included. Currently training for the 11 is in Long Beach, but I hear the sim might be moving to Miami. They were putting crews up at the Oakwood Apartments on the PCH next to Seal Beach. You can Google it if you want.
I, for one, am glad to see them doing something about these 3-6 month "wanna be's" using Gemini for a free ride. If you can't give us at least a year, move on and keep your hands out of our pockets.

I'll say it one more time for those who don't believe it. "Freight Dogging is not for everyone."
If you can't be away from your Mommy/Daddy/wife/kids/dog/cat or whatever for 18 days a month and the ocassional "back to back" 30 or more, than don't waste your time or ours.

...and thanks for the training info.

Yes, (don't laugh), but the Gemini lifestyle appeals to me. I'd like to go there and spend a career there, I just wish it was an easy decison....if the pay was a little better, and there was retirement.

ZP

 

[Z_Pilot]

...oh, one more Q:

Is training pretty quick at Gemini (6 weeks) or is it strung-out? (3 mos?)

Thanks

 

[landlover]

fedora,

any details on how much the training contract is worth? is it pro-rated? i want to work at gemini once my current training agreement expires, hope you guys are still hiring then. are they still giving guys the full PIC type out of the gate?

 

[DA-20]

Two of my home boys did not make it IOE. That can get expensive for GAC. Training as of June: 2 weeks in DC, 3 weeks Long Beach, 5 days at home, and 3 weeks in HELL. It is taking awhile for IOE I waited almost 2 months. I will hang and see what happens with the contract next year, they need to fix a lot.
And yes DOGG'N ain't easy but its even harder sitting coach for 16 hours to get to and from work

 

[Z_Pilot]

Two of my home boys did not make it IOE. That can get expensive for GAC. Training as of June: 2 weeks in DC, 3 weeks Long Beach, 5 days at home, and 3 weeks in HELL. It is taking awhile for IOE I waited almost 2 months. I will hang and see what happens with the contract next year, they need to fix a lot.
And yes DOGG'N ain't easy but its even harder sitting coach for 16 hours to get to and from work

They did not make it to IOE or through IOE?

What's the wash-out rate?

How much do your buddies owe Gemini?

 

[DA-20]

They left before IOE. Our class did not have a contract, so they owe 0$. All 6 of us made it with little problems.

 

[Fedora]

Sorry, Z, it was not a personal attack. If you can fly a jet, you should be able to get through the program. Maybe DA-20 can shed more light on whether his "home boys" were having problems with training, or got their types and left before IOE because they had jobs waiting. (it has happened, and is one of the reasons I'm thinking it's time for a contract.)
We've had the guys who have said "the frieght dog life appeals to me" leave after 2 months on line because "they needed more time at home."
Hey, Fog! Maybe you can dig up some of the facts and numbers of how many didn't hack the program or left after less than one year.
And to all you guys who think UPS is hiring the Gemini FO's with 200 MD11 hours in their logbooks think again. Most have had 2-3 years on the line at Gemini before they were called. I don't blame those guys for leaving. We just can't match the UPS pay scale. The FO pay scale here sucks after the second year, and hopefully we can do something with the new contract to fix it. For now, it is what it is. Anyone who has read all 4 pages of this thread will see that I've tried to tell it like it is to folks thinking about coming here.
Then they get their first coach class ticket to Shanhai, China and say OMG! I didn't know!
Six months at Gemini trying to "build your resume" is six months you could have been increasing your seniority at JB, AT, SWA, or CA.
Choose wisely, Grasshoppers!

 

[2LT]

I thought that ALPA had something in their by-laws which prohibited any kind/type of 'training contract' at carriers which they represent? I know while I was there --at GAC-- they had a couple of guys sign contracts whom they felt were at risk/easy targets, etc. for contracting. I'm unsure where ALPA would fall on that issue.

That said, like most of us on here, I can understand the position(s) of both the Company and the Pilot alike with regards to signing a contract; not trying to start a contest of wits. I'm just curious what ALPA's official stance is, and whether this would apply to a Probationary Crewmember at GAC?

As far as the GAC to UPS guys, I think it currently stands at 12 who're currently out and flying the line. Of those, the first 6 hired had right around a year of employment at GAC before coming over; +/- 2-3 months. The last 6 each had several years on the line like Fedora mentioned. Right now, there are several guys in the pipeline/pool, etc. that are relatively junior once again. So, it's going both ways w/ regards to seniority. One commonality: they've all got an MD-11 type.

 

[fokkers&beer]

Not everyone came from GAC with MD types. I couldn't even spell MD-11 before I came here.

 

[fogrunner]

I am going over to be an instructor on the 11, so I will know more once I get in to the school house. I am not going in to great detail as I do not have all the facts. What I do know it is not a training contract in the sense of say what World has. I will try to find out more details soon.

This all came about because we have had a few people leave within the first six months....

I don't think it should stop people from applying or interviewing. If you do not like the terms then don't take the job... That also goes for the pay, QOL etc. etc.

 

[2LT]

Not everyone came from GAC with MD types. I couldn't even spell MD-11 before I came here.

Ah, yes. Sorry, you're the exception though!! I think you're the first one as of late that they put on the -11 from GAC who wasn't already typed...not sure, maybe more are coming?

 

[Fedora]

Not everyone came from GAC with MD types. I couldn't even spell MD-11 before I came here.

And I doubt that you had less than one year here on the DC-10.
Many of our DC-10 guys are more than qualified to go to UPS on any type aircraft. My point is that 6 months here on any aircraft will probably not get you hired at Brown.
I've had PM's from a guy who had 6 months at World who didn't understand why he didn't get the job at UPS. Six months into a two year training contract didn't seem to be a disqualifyer to him. Where has all the integrity gone?

 

[Visceral]

Guys are going to go where they can earn a fair wage with a good company that treats them well. What is going on at GAC is happening many other places also. Guys are leaving CAL after getting typed in the 737 and going to SWA. Regional pilots are leaving smaller, less desirable outfits for bigger, better paying ones. As long as you abide by the cancellation terms of the contract, its business, not a lack of integrity.

 

[Z_Pilot]

Do you guys get all of the air-miles for all of the dead-heading you do? ...That would be a great way to offset the lack of non-revenue \ zed-fare travel. How does Gemini go about picking which airline to dead-head you on? ZP