G550 vs Global Express/Xrs

[Gulfstream 200]

Who even WANTS to fly at 510??

not me, thanks...

 

[GVFlyer]

If your gonna tell the story then tell the whole story about why the airplane departed and who was flying.

Typical Gulfstream sales crap!


CG

Okay, under FAR Part 25 standards for certification factory test pilots are required to first demonstrate a required test point then that test point is certified by a FAA test pilot from the servicing Aircraft Certification Office (ACO). The FAR requires that neither "special skill or ability" be required to fly these points - this is the part that the FAA pilots demonstrate best. It was with a FAA test pilot at the helm during a test point to demonstrate recovery from runaway trim that we went to Mach 1.07 during GV development.

It was during Global development when demonstrating recovery from unaccelerated aerodynamic stalls with a FAA test pilot at the controls that the jet pitched-up and could not be returned to controlled flight without deploying the stall chute. This is precisely what occurred during Challenger 600 development with the exception that Bombardier test pilots were at both cockpit stations and that they could not get rid of the stall chute after getting the nose down. Subsequently, there was insufficient thrust available for sustained flight and controlability was suspect. Two of the crew were able to bail out and sustained severe injuries. The remaining pilot and flight test engineer perished with their craft. The surviving test pilot now works in the Atlanta ACO.

Far 25.201 requires the jet be decelerated from straight and level trimmed flight at a rate of up to 3 knots per second until the aircraft is stalled. Bombardier maintains that the FAA test pilot slowed the Global at too great a rate. I say it doesn't make any difference, no Gulfstream - ever - has pitched up during any mode of stall testing regardless of condition or pilot action. Pitch - up during stall is one of the least desireable aerodynamic characteristics that an aircraft can posses as it not a recoverable mode. I stand by my original statement that the Global does not offer the kind of safety margins that are inherent in the Gulfstream. I say this not as a salesman, because I am not a salesman, but as a test pilot that has participated in a closed-loop handling qualities evaluation of the Global Express.

GV

 

[fokkerjet]

This is all fine and dandy, but I believe all this happened during flight testing! To date, I don't believe any Challenger, Global Express, or CRJ has departed controlled flight while operating within its certified flight envelope. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the engineers and test pilots that define the envelope; but it's the test pilots who risk life and limb, confirming the boundaries that the rest of us are to live within. Is that not what shakers and pullers are all about......to prevent us from joining the ranks of test pilot if we stray outside those set boundaries?

Boeing, Airbus, McDonnell-Douglas, and even Gulfstream, needed to tweek aircraft design during certification......Bombardier it seems, pushes the process a bit more than the others and have been bit with several accidents, losing some fine test pilots in the process, I'm sure. I wonder if Gulfstream might struggle somewhat also if they ever decided to build an airplane from stratch?

 

[h25b]

This is all fine and dandy, but I believe all this happened during flight testing! To date, I don't believe any Challenger, Global Express, or CRJ has departed controlled flight while operating within its certified flight envelope. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the engineers and test pilots that define the envelope; but it's the test pilots who risk life and limb, confirming the boundaries that the rest of us are to live within. Is that not what shakers and pullers are all about......to prevent us from joining the ranks of test pilot if we stray outside those set boundaries?

Boeing, Airbus, McDonnell-Douglas, and even Gulfstream, needed to tweek aircraft design during certification......Bombardier it seems, pushes the process a bit more than the others and have been bit with several accidents, losing some fine test pilots in the process, I'm sure. I wonder if Gulfstream might struggle somewhat also if they ever decided to build an airplane from stratch?

Well put, from what I have seen... It's pretty much a draw, the avionics of the G550 are better. BUT, it's not what's up front that matters. The hind end of the Global is definately nicer IMHO...

 

[Kiwi]

Does anyone have any insights on the new Global 5000? Our flight department is looking at this to replace our f900ex.


From what I can determine it is essentially an express with a smaller fuel tank. Am I on the right track?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well put, from what I have seen... It's pretty much a draw, the avionics of the G550 are better. BUT, it's not what's up front that matters. The hind end of the Global is definately nicer IMHO...

and sadly, the hind end makes the decision 99% of the time.

 

[G4G5]

I've been to Fl510 a few times our G5. They were all on my flights up and down the east coast. All at basicly the same weights. What I noticed was to get the aircraft up there I had to do it at a speed greater then .M80, M83 was what I typically used. At .80, I had the "Moose antlers" pop up at 49500 and nearly soiled myself ( the FMS told me no problem, and yes I had all of the parameters, wind weight temp, ect.).

The problem I have had is trying to stretch it from Asia, is the Canadians. They seem reluctant to give you a block alt above 450. I have asked for a block 470-490 and been told that," 470 is wrong direction". Give me a break.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

FL 510 - harsh enviornment IMHO.

good to know it CAN do it if one wanted I suppose!

 

[bigD]

Stupid newbie question here: what are "moose antlers"?

And Gulfstream 200 - were you in Austin last week by chance? Just curious.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Not a stupid question what-so-ever.

Im GUESSING he means the "Pitch Limit Indicator" bars that pop up on the PFD Attitude Indicator in BAD situations...they look like amber antlers.

they are basically showing you the pitch attitude where the A/C will reach stall speed.

I believe it is technically part of the Winshear Detection system.

Seeing that at FL510 at .83 would surely get your attention (to say the least) Thats called exploring the envelope of a bizjet.

FL510 is a serious altitude, NOT to be used to try to top WX, etc...I avoid it by staying FL470/450 and bringing her back to .80 - seems to accomplish the same thing (In the GLEX at least).


Austin, nope sorry bro - aint doin' many DO-MESTIC trips these days..those trips are for girly planes - DA50/900s, GIVs, and -gulp- Citations...(haha)

but if I get there I will give you a heads up - treat you to some BBQ and beers!!!


PS - I hope this post was correct, be wary - we know GLEX pilots aren't the smartest - certainly not worthy of the GIV/GV ("jesus4, jesus5")

Be Well

 

[DC3Flyer]

The pitch limit indicator on the GV comes on with an angle of attack of .70 if I remember correctly. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I've been out of the airplane for a couple of years.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well...I had to dig out my FSI and Bombardier CD's to read what they say...



GLEX Pitch Limit Indicators
Primus 2000XP

Pitch Limit

When the WSHR mode is activated, the attitude at which the aircraft will reach stall speed is indicated on both PFD's by the Pitch Limit Indicator (PLI) (Figure 16a-57) The PLI is removed from each PFD when the WSHR FD mode is disengaged

I guess it figures AOA for you and just displays it as pitch...???

 

[GVFlyer]

Moose Antlers..

On the GV and derivatives the Pitch Limit Indicator is displayed when the normalized AOA is greater than 0.7, and is used as a visual cue to alert the pilot to an impending stick shaker. On the GV, shaker will always occur at .85 AOA and pusher always occurs at 1.0 AOA. The way this is implimented is pretty straight forward - if the Aircraft Symbol on the ADI touches the PLI you'll get the shaker.

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

I've been to Fl510 a few times our G5. They were all on my flights up and down the east coast. All at basicly the same weights. What I noticed was to get the aircraft up there I had to do it at a speed greater then .M80, M83 was what I typically used. At .80, I had the "Moose antlers" pop up at 49500 and nearly soiled myself ( the FMS told me no problem, and yes I had all of the parameters, wind weight temp, ect.).

The problem I have had is trying to stretch it from Asia, is the Canadians. They seem reluctant to give you a block alt above 450. I have asked for a block 470-490 and been told that," 470 is wrong direction". Give me a break.

I always program the climb at 300/.80 (except when max range is required, I then use 300/.75 to FL400 then 1.3 Vso above that) and I climb on the weight for speed charts in the Quick Reference Handbook and I have no problems. As a technique, I'll request block FL490 - FL510, then select Metric Altitude on the Display Controller so the Altitude Selector will display in hundreds of feet rather than in 500 foot increments, then climb the jet to exactly match the optimum altitude on the FMS Cruise page.

I have had the same problems with the Canadians. I was coming through their airspace at 0300 hours on a record run from Tokyo to New York at FL470 and they told me I had to either climb or descend to the appropriate altitude for my direction of flight.

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

Hey GV,

I hear it's Gulfstream verses Falcon again..........could mean "happy days in Savannah" if both orders go your way!

Yee Hah! More dinner on the table for US workers.