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G1159 question

cyork25

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Okay guys,

I have a quick question. We have a GIII with a forward galley and the forward club. It seems that when we have 4 in the front club that the nose comes down hard when landing. Any suggestions or is this just the nature of the beast?
 

cjdriver

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Lower the nose before you run out of elevator authority. The Astra is the same way.
 

cyork25

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Most of the jets I have flown have been that way if you lingered with the nose. I wouldn't say we have been lingering with the nose of the Gulfstream though, I have flown with some very experienced G-drivers and they were saying about all you could do was open the reversers on the way down and pull on the elevator. We are starting to set the nose down as soon as the mains hit. Just wondering if there is a better way to do it.
 

ProFracPilot

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We have a GIII with a forward galley and the forward club. It seems that when we have 4 in the front club that the nose comes down hard when landing. Any suggestions or is this just the nature of the beast?

Gulfstreams do not like a FWD galley. They were not designed for this configuration, but Middle East operators demand them so you'll find some configured that way. A FWD galley moves the empty CG quite a ways forward. The aft ballast can be a good idea - until you realize you're taking away payload. And depending on who did the completion / refurb, they may have already added ballast aft of the hell-hole door.

Are you new to Gulfstreams? If so, you do not want much of a flare on touchdown. As the mains roll on, a pitch-down moment occurs when the ground spoilers deploy. You need to catch this with the elevator. A quick application of thrust rev (to idle) can assist in slowing the pitch-down moment. Holding your tongue just right helps too. ;) I'm sure you'll find a combination that works.

pfp
 

cyork25

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Yeah, i am new, like 150 hrs so far. I have just been trying to figure a way to set the nose down smoothly. The balast is a good idea, I just hate to burn useful load. Do you fly ref+10 down final and into the soft stops until the mains touch and then the hard stops? I have heard so many different techniques. I have just been ref+10 down final, 50 ft slowly reduce power, hard stops right before the mains touch. What is the best technique?
 

ProFracPilot

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Most of my time is in the -II and the -IV. The -II would bleed energy really quick in the flare because it was so draggy. Vref +10 was the target, but I could comfortably carry more speed and bleed it earlier in the landing transition if I had to. In my experience with the -IV, it must be on speed (no more than Vref+10), shooting for Vref at 50' or else it floats as it won't bleed speed as quickly. The -III has a similar wing to the -IV, so speed control is important. Your technique of going to the hard stops just prior to touchdown sounds right to me. As the mains touch, about 1 sec later the nose will want to drop. Catch it (don't raise it!) with the elevator as you deploy the T/R's, and then let it settle onto the pavement. Don't try to keep the nose high in the air as it will fall hard when you lose elevator effectiveness. The other problem with keeping the nose really high, especially in a crosswind, is that when you pull reverse thrust the rudder will sometimes lose effectiveness due to the exhaust plume blocking airflow across the vertical. If you're nose high, corrected for crosswind and the rudder effectiveness goes bye-bye, the nose will suddenly be moving very rapidly towards the runway lights and you can't do anything about it until the nosewheels are down. Don't ask me how I know this :0 . So getting the nosewheels on the ground earlier rather than later - especially in a crosswind - is good technique.

I don't recall how long it took me to feel comfortable in the -II, but after flying it for quite some time and then moving to the -IV, I think it was 200 or 300 hours before I felt like I had it nailed. With 150 hours you should get it dialed in soon. Just don't quit on the landing until you're at taxi speed and clearing the runway.;)

pfp
 
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Shag McNasty

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With the forward galley the only thing you can do is pull the yoke into your lap just after the mains touch. It goes against every instinct you have as a pilot but it's the only thing that will counter the forward cg. How many glasses have you broken in the galley so far?:)
 

cyork25

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we haven't broken any yet, fingers crossed. i hope that day doesn't come. All you experienced G guys, gimme some tips on what works for you in the airplane(any phase of flight). I am really curious.
 

Partyfoul

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Hey Cyork,

Been about 11 years since I last flew the 3. We had a forward galley. I would go to the hard stops at Ref+10 at about 100 feet. Get the mains on, fly the nose, then pop the T/R's to 80 pct HP. No tail wiggle and able to lower the nose softly. Remember that what we think is a hard nose landing sometimes is not that bad in the back. Forward galleys in the IV and V are much easier. Tell the boss to upgrade.
 

gulfstreameric

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enough
And even in our G550, when landing we try to bring the nose down quickly & smoothly, but as is flies so slow on approach (big wing), you loose that same elevator authority. We have a forward galley and many times I think the nose comes down too hard 9Teeth shattering),but no one in the back seems to notice. Gulfstream nose gear is not very comfortable and noisy on landing, but anyone aft of the galley has a totally different perception. I feel that the Bombardier Challengers did a much better job.
But I'll live with it flying this one for now.

And I agree with the previous poster, do not quit flying till you of the runway !
 

Gear Up!

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It doesnt matter If you have a forward or rear galley. I used to have the guy in the right seat assist which made it easier.
 

gear_guy

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Most of my time is in the -II and the -IV. The -II would bleed energy really quick in the flare because it was so draggy. Vref +10 was the target, but I could comfortably carry more speed and bleed it earlier in the landing transition if I had to. In my experience with the -IV, it must be on speed (no more than Vref+10), shooting for Vref at 50' or else it floats as it won't bleed speed as quickly. The -III has a similar wing to the -IV, so speed control is important. Your technique of going to the hard stops just prior to touchdown sounds right to me. As the mains touch, about 1 sec later the nose will want to drop. Catch it (don't raise it!) with the elevator as you deploy the T/R's, and then let it settle onto the pavement. Don't try to keep the nose high in the air as it will fall hard when you lose elevator effectiveness. The other problem with keeping the nose really high, especially in a crosswind, is that when you pull reverse thrust the rudder will sometimes lose effectiveness due to the exhaust plume blocking airflow across the vertical. If you're nose high, corrected for crosswind and the rudder effectiveness goes bye-bye, the nose will suddenly be moving very rapidly towards the runway lights and you can't do anything about it until the nosewheels are down. Don't ask me how I know this :0 . So getting the nosewheels on the ground earlier rather than later - especially in a crosswind - is good technique.

I don't recall how long it took me to feel comfortable in the -II, but after flying it for quite some time and then moving to the -IV, I think it was 200 or 300 hours before I felt like I had it nailed. With 150 hours you should get it dialed in soon. Just don't quit on the landing until you're at taxi speed and clearing the runway.;)

pfp

I think this is all great advice. I do however disagree with one part. I am always a little leary of deploying T/R's when the nose is still airborne. This can lead to some other things happening. You addressed one of them: directional control. Be very careful ever doing this in a X-wind. Things can go bad in a hurry.

I pretty much do exactly what you said except I wait till the nose is down to use T/R's. The T/R's do take a while to get spooled up so I do understand why people do this. However, I don't think it's worth the trade-off in safety. Just my opinion and I know floks much more experienced than me will disagree. And much can be said for experience.
 

ProFracPilot

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I pretty much do exactly what you said except I wait till the nose is down to use T/R's. The T/R's do take a while to get spooled up so I do understand why people do this. However, I don't think it's worth the trade-off in safety. Just my opinion and I know floks much more experienced than me will disagree. And much can be said for experience.

I agree, g_g. It is always best to wait until the nose is on the ground to deploy T/R's. My advice was really specific to the challenge of the forward CG issue posed by cyork25. I still believe deployment of T/R's - to IDLE THRUST ONLY - when the mains touch can help his predicament. Done properly I think it can also be done without compromising directional control, as the nose will be down very soon in that particular airplane anyway.
 

gear_guy

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I agree, g_g. It is always best to wait until the nose is on the ground to deploy T/R's. My advice was really specific to the challenge of the forward CG issue posed by cyork25. I still believe deployment of T/R's - to IDLE THRUST ONLY - when the mains touch can help his predicament. Done properly I think it can also be done without compromising directional control, as the nose will be down very soon in that particular airplane anyway.

I understand. Our department is split in half on this issue. Half the guys deploy the t/r's with the nose wheel up. And half don't. I don't b/c if I ever do lose directional control, I want to be able to say that I did everything I could to keep it on the pavement. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I have a feeling if it goes in the grass the question as to if the nose wheel was down when t/r's were deployed will be asked. And I want to be able to say yes. The downside: I probably use a little more runway. But, I think I can land it just as smooth as others without t/r's and safety is not compromised. Also, landing distances are not predicated on T/R's.

Good discussion!
 
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