G0Jets pilots unanimously vote in Teamsters

[N2264J]

Re: GJ pilots unanimously vote in Teamsters

Be sure you keep us updated on when the judge throws out your silly little lawsuit. Or, more accurately, what's left of it.

Judge Glasser recommended turning the suit into a class action.

Does that sound like he's thinking about throwing "what's left of it" out?

 

[N2264J]

Re: GJ pilots unanimously vote in Teamsters

So to sum it up.....BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.....We need your support, send in more money so we can pay our lawyer.....Lies lies lies lies......We'll make you all 777 captains if you keep sending us more money so we can get scope abolished.....Twisted facts.....Blah blah blah.....We've requested more documents from alpa....blah blah blah

You still haven't read it, have you? If you have, the fact that you've achieved your station in life with your reading comprehension is both surprising and kind of frightening. Since your attention span is about two sentences long, I'll try to accomodate.

The RJDC hasn't requested more documents from ALPA, they're demanding the documents that ALPA has so far failed to produce.

Ask yourself this: if ALPA's conduct to Comair and ASA is on the level, what are they trying to hide by not turning over their discovery homework? If the case has no merit, what are they afraid of?

 

[Lear70]

There's a lot of RJDC bashers out there, and a lot of staunch supporters,,, and then a lot of people who fall in the middle - like me - who HAVE read the lawsuit and get the regular email updates.

It's a FACT that ALPA representing both sides is a conflict of interest.

It's a FACT that ALPA won't turn over the REQUIRED paper trail.

It's also a FACT that, unfortunately, there's not a lot of union options unless you're a LARGE carrier that doesn't need outside financial support in a strike situation. Strikes are expensive. Extensive litigation is expensive. Our MEC spends EVERY DOLLAR available from dues and ALPA help just to fight our hostile management group - I don't know that we could do it without ALPA backing. I CERTAINLY know we couldn't do it with a "Pinnacle Pilot's Association" as a stand-alone union.

If you can't admit there's a problem, you're drinking too much ALPA cool-aid, but I don't believe the RJDC is the answer. They want to supply REGIONAL pilots with more jobs. There's nowhere for those jobs to come from except the mainline carrier's pilots LOSING jobs to newer and bigger RJ's.

I don't want to be stuck at this level of my career forever. THAT'S why I don't support the RJDC.

Maybe the cure is MORE COWBELL !!

Seriously, something has to change, I just don't know what the solution is...

 

[N2264J]

If you can't admit there's a problem, you're drinking too much ALPA cool-aid, but I don't believe the RJDC is the answer. They want to supply REGIONAL pilots with more jobs...THAT'S why I don't support the RJDC...Seriously, something has to change, I just don't know what the solution is...

Maybe this will help. Scope is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem. (While scope is capping our careers, how many furloughee's jobs have been saved by scope? answer: not one) As ALPA allowed alter egos to flourish, mainline pilots have and will continue to suffer, remarkably, at their own hand.

Our union's motto should be the same as the physician, "first, do no harm." Once the playing field is level, the union can move forward if all brand name pilots are permitted to bargain collectively which is the charter of any union and our right under federal law.

 

[Lear70]

Maybe this will help. Scope is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem.

Possibly, but I still don't agree with ALL of the RJDC's ideas of "the problem".

(While scope is capping our careers, how many furloughee's jobs have been saved by scope? answer: not one)

That's completely incorrect.

Do you have any idea, just at Northwest ALONE, how many RJ's would already be on property if Scope wasn't there to stop them? How many DC-9's would already be parked for ERJ 190's ordered years ago if there was no scope? Answer: DOZENS.

Scope has saved hundreds of mainline pilot's jobs, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. If you can't see that, you're dellusional. Why do you think they're getting ready to strike over it? Because they know, the SECOND that Scope is gone, they'll be counting the days until their number on the DC-9 comes up on the furlough list and the next ERJ-190 goes on certificate at Mesaba.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE BIGGER AND MORE RJ'S AT REGIONALS. If you do, you're either too old to make it to a major and in it just for you or you're FU*KING CRAZY.

As ALPA allowed alter egos to flourish, mainline pilots have and will continue to suffer, remarkably, at their own hand.

You act as though they somehow KNEW, at the time they first signed for ANY scope relief (turboprop only days), that the RJ "boom" would happen and the majors would spin off their flying to the point "alter-egos" represented 25-35% of their daily domestic departures.

Somehow, I don't think they knew. You seriously believe they bargained to lose their own jobs in future? I didn't think so. Claiming that they "continue to suffer, remarkably, at their own hand" is sensationalism at its finest, and you know it.

Our union's motto should be the same as the physician, "first, do no harm." Once the playing field is level, the union can move forward if all brand name pilots are permitted to bargain collectively which is the charter of any union and our right under federal law.

If, by that, you mean that ALPA should somehow FORCE mainline managements to bargain for all of its flag carriers under one ALPA group, you're dreaming, buddy.

That was the WHOLE POINT of spinning them off, so they could create an entirely new "B-scale" workforce. You want to re-integrate them? Fine. Tell us how...? You think mainline ALPA pilots are going to strike over bringing all the affiliates back under one roof? That would take more vision than most senior pilots are capable of.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this part; the downward spiral won't stop until all the Northwest and Airlink pilots are all on the Northwest mainline seniority list, and Delta, and United, and Continental, and so on and so forth and there ARE NO "regional affiliates".

For that to happen, you'd have to convince the top 30% at EACH CARRIER, INCLUDING the regionals, to make it a strike issue. I just don't think you can sway that kind of voting when the top 30% are focused on their last 5-10 years until mandatory.

 

[Lear70]

Maybe this will help. Scope is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem.

Possibly, but I still don't agree with ALL of the RJDC's ideas of "the problem".

(While scope is capping our careers, how many furloughee's jobs have been saved by scope? answer: not one)

That's completely incorrect.

Do you have any idea, just at Northwest ALONE, how many RJ's would already be on property if Scope wasn't there to stop them? How many DC-9's would already be parked for ERJ 190's ordered years ago if there was no scope? Answer: DOZENS.

Scope has saved hundreds of mainline pilot's jobs, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. If you can't see that, you're dellusional. Why do you think they're getting ready to strike over it? Because they know, the SECOND that Scope is gone, they'll be counting the days until their number on the DC-9 comes up on the furlough list and the next ERJ-190 goes on certificate at Mesaba.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE BIGGER AND MORE RJ'S AT REGIONALS. If you do, you're either too old to make it to a major and in it just for you or you're FU*KING CRAZY.

As ALPA allowed alter egos to flourish, mainline pilots have and will continue to suffer, remarkably, at their own hand.

You act as though they somehow KNEW, at the time they first signed for ANY scope relief (turboprop only days), that the RJ "boom" would happen and the majors would spin off their flying to the point "alter-egos" represented 25-35% of their daily domestic departures.

Somehow, I don't think they knew. You seriously believe they bargained to lose their own jobs in future? I didn't think so. Claiming that they "continue to suffer, remarkably, at their own hand" is sensationalism at its finest, and you know it.

Our union's motto should be the same as the physician, "first, do no harm." Once the playing field is level, the union can move forward if all brand name pilots are permitted to bargain collectively which is the charter of any union and our right under federal law.

If, by that, you mean that ALPA should somehow FORCE mainline managements to bargain for all of its flag carriers under one ALPA group, you're dreaming, buddy.

That was the WHOLE POINT of spinning them off, so they could create an entirely new "B-scale" workforce. You want to re-integrate them? Fine. Tell us how...? You think mainline ALPA pilots are going to strike over bringing all the affiliates back under one roof? That would take more vision than most senior pilots are capable of.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this part; the downward spiral won't stop until all the Northwest and Airlink pilots are all on the Northwest mainline seniority list, and Delta, and United, and Continental, and so on and so forth and there ARE NO "regional affiliates".

For that to happen, you'd have to convince the top 30% at EACH CARRIER, INCLUDING the regionals, to make it a strike issue. I just don't think you can sway that kind of voting when the top 30% are focused on their last 5-10 years until mandatory.

 

[N2264J]

Re: GJ pilots unanimously vote in Teamsters

That's completely incorrect.

Do you have any idea, just at Northwest ALONE, how many RJ's would already be on property if Scope wasn't there to stop them? How many DC-9's would already be parked for ERJ 190's ordered years ago if there was no scope? Answer: DOZENS.

Scope has saved hundreds of mainline pilot's jobs, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. If you can't see that, you're dellusional.

Why prevent management from attaining the new technology? DC-9s are obsolete.

Just a couple of things:

We are not against scope. That is mainline disinformation aimed at the RJDC. Scope is the glue that binds management to the contract. Every pilot group needs it.

What we are against is trying to use mainline scope clauses to control the marketplace: to scope aircraft they don't fly and don't want to fly. It doesn't work. Comair and ASA (ie Delta) have been unable to rightsize their equipment from 50 to 70 seaters over the past 5 years because of the mainline scope clause. I believe that hurt Delta, it hurt Comair and ASA pilots, and it didn't help one furloughee. Not one. As a matter of fact, if it hadn't been for all the Delta RJs bringing people to the hub where they get on a mainline aircraft, I believe there would be many more furloughees at Delta than there have been.

Airlines desperately need to rightsize equipment to the market. The DMEC could scope Comair down to zero and Delta would still not operate a 737 to Hooterville and back. You can't make any money hauling 70 people in the back of a Maddog. If you only take one thing from this post, it should be that you can't control the marketplace with a union contract.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this part; the downward spiral won't stop until all the Northwest and Airlink pilots are all on the Northwest mainline seniority list, and Delta, and United, and Continental, and so on and so forth and there ARE NO "regional affiliates".

Our forefathers in ALPA believed that and wrote it down. Until 1998, ALPA had a Merger and Alter ego policy that addressed this. That policy was made toothless just four months prior to Delta's purchase of ASA. Remember, the DMEC had a pilot who was a nonvoting member of Delta Inc's Board of Directors and would have known of the plan to buy.

 

[Lear70]

Why prevent management from attaining the new technology? DC-9s are obsolete.

No one's trying to prevent the replacement of the DC-9's. Order as many RJ's as they want, just let the Northwest pilots fly them.

What we are against is trying to use mainline scope clauses to control the marketplace: to scope aircraft they don't fly and don't want to fly.

Just as much as you claim anti-RJDC rhetoric, that statement right there is anti-ALPA rhetoric.

No one is trying to control the marketplace. Pilots couldn't give a d*mn less whether an Airbus or an RJ is on a specific route, as long as a mainline pilot is flying it. If management can't make money off paying mainline wages to operate that aircraft on that route, then I submit that the airline DOESN'T NEED TO BE FLYING THAT ROUTE.

That's not "market control", that's "job protection" and is at the HEART of the ALPA Alter-ego clause you refer to at the end of your argument.

It doesn't work. Comair and ASA (ie Delta) have been unable to rightsize their equipment from 50 to 70 seaters over the past 5 years because of the mainline scope clause.

That's the fault of the company, not of any pilot group. If the company wants to operate a larger aircraft on a route, let them do it with mainline pilots. If they can't do it profitably, then they just don't do it. Business 101.

I believe that hurt Delta, it hurt Comair and ASA pilots, and it didn't help one furloughee. Not one.

That's a bunch of happy horsesh*t you're shoveling and there's not a SINGLE person here that believes it except for you RJDC people. I've sat here and watched as CRJ's have been added at Northwest and DC-9's have been parked. That means for every CRJ that comes on property to take over unprofitable DC-9 routes, 10 mainline pilots lose their jobs.

I understand that the Northwest pilots bargained away the rights to fly those aircraft and that Northwest has the right to fly those 50-seaters mainline pilots gave them years ago, but I refuse to support ANY organization that tries to hide behind company profitability while tossing good employees to the curb. Fu*k that.

As a matter of fact, if it hadn't been for all the Delta RJs bringing people to the hub where they get on a mainline aircraft, I believe there would be many more furloughees at Delta than there have been.

Possibly, but since we don't have actual load numbers and cost/revenue analysis from those operations, it's impossible to debate here, and I won't try.

Airlines desperately need to rightsize equipment to the market. The DMEC could scope Comair down to zero and Delta would still not operate a 737 to Hooterville and back. You can't make any money hauling 70 people in the back of a Maddog. If you only take one thing from this post, it should be that you can't control the marketplace with a union contract.

If you take one thing away from this post, it should be that the pilots aren't trying to control the marketplace with Scope, they're trying to protect THEIR JOBS. Marketplace restriction is not the direct result of Scope restrictions, it's an indirect result of management not being able to make enough money off a route with a 70- or 90-seater at mainline wages.

I agree with you, airlines need to rightsize equipment to the market but they can do it with mainline pilots if it's larger than whatever aircraft is currently scoped out. If they can't do that, they can raise the prices on a route. If a route won't hold higher prices, they need to focus their attention elsewhere. Period.

If the airlines don't like that, the managers can find other companies to ruin. The line has already been pushed too far. This far, and NO further. I hope and pray the Delta and Northwest pilots hold the line.