G V beats NRT-IAD Speed Record.

[FL510GV]

Astra now Gulfstream?

I'll put my ignorance on a plate for you... but isn't the Astra now known as the Gulfstream 100 and the Galaxy the Gulfstream 200?, or vise-versa... anyway, GD is the parent company of Gulfstream.

Great discussion on the G-V vs Global -- of course I am biased, but every time I have seen a Global on the ramp parked next to our sleek G-V, it looks bloated and bumpy, all those tiny windows, the ugly hinges hanging off the wing... The G-V is a beautiful jet, can't say as much for the Global.

 

[CitationCapt]

General Dynamics and the Astra

Funny you should mention the Astra (G100), since that is one being considered here also.

 

[GVFlyer]

Astra now Gulfstream?

Yes, you are, of course, correct. GD bought Galaxy last summer for 353 million (of which 330 mil was in cash), and another 315 million if the company meets certain revenue goals. A sweetheart of a deal for G'stream/GD in that Hyatt had 650 milllion in Galaxy.

The Astra is now the G100 and the Galaxy is the G200. I just have a hard time calling them Gulfstreams. In my view they are IAI airplanes completed and marketed by Gulfstream. The Galaxy was born needing a wing. The original concept was to have Yakovlev, serving as a risk - sharing partner, design and build the wing. Yakovlev, unable to capitalize their part of the deal, backed out in 1995. This left IAI with an order book of customers and no wing. As an expedient, they modified and enlarged the Astra SPX wing for application on the Galaxy. Voile', another underwinged, buffet limited airplane. This is no great shakes, the Galaxy is an honest airplane that does what it's supposed to at a very competitive price; it just doesn't have the margins one normally associates with Gulfstreams.

Vis-a-vis the GV's appearance versus the Global Express, which I believe, you characterized as looking like a CL604 with cancer, the GV has another fan in an unusual place. When I was taking Borge Boeskov, the former President of Boeing Business Jet and Manfred Schindler, their VP for International for their first look at a GV, Borge turned to Manfred and remarked, "If it only had to do with appearance, we would never sell another airplane, this is a beautiful jet."

 

[GVFlyer]

General Dynamics and the Astra

>>Funny you should mention the Astra (G100), since that is one being considered here also.

You could do worse, it offers fair performance at a fair price and, with the acquisition by Gulfstream, at least 5 new General Dynamics Aircraft Services service centers. There are a lot of airplanes to choose from in the coast to coast at the speed of heat market. It just all depends on how much your principal wants to spend...

 

[swberry]

GVflyer, your post on the GV/GX was very well thought out and informative. This board is a pleasant change from the union web site I am accustomed to. Your information on the C750 is grossly inaccurate, however.

I do not have the cruise charts here at home, but I can tell you from alot of experience in the airplane that the range at highspeed cruise (ie: .9 to .91), FL 430, still air, full fuel and isa conditions is about 2600 to 2700 nm. slowing down to long range cruise (.82 to .84) will give you about 3000 to 3100 nm in the same conditions as above. Thsi includes reserves and with 8 pax the range numbers are not that different.

Considering the relatively small amount of difference in distance from hsc to lrc, I do not think there is a large increase in drag between the two speeds. Wing sweep (40 degrees according to my fsi manual) is one contributory factor to operating at a high mach number without a huge increase in drag. Another factor is a supercritical wing design with a shallow camber (wing shape). Both of these would delay early airflow seperation and allow a higher mcrit.

These factors do, however cause some problems with lowspeed handling characteristics, and as you stated above cessna has addressed this issue by developing a mod that has significantly improved controllability in gusty and/or crosswind conditions. Specifically, they are remixing the ratio between aileron/roll spoiler deflection. With the mod, the roll spoilers will deploy sooner based on a lesser degree of aileron deflection angle than before.

Thanks alot for the info on the GV and GX and I hope you appreciate this info on the CX from a high time CX captain...

 

[GVFlyer]

Citation X

SW Berry

Thanks for your post.

I've only flown the C-750 once on a pilot demo. Coming out of the Gulfstream, which flies like a big KingAir, it was a handfull for me. I don't profess to know a lot about it, but let me remind you that the only certified data in your Airplane Flight Manual is that for takeoff and landing. The cruise data only, "has to be representative of a test article in the certification test program." This cruise data normally comes from the lowest ranking test pilot having to take a green (uncompleted) aircraft out and do hour upon hour of drag polars. This makes you the "good hands man" as a typical test point might be 37,200 ft+/- 100 and 221kts.+/- 3 kts. for 5 minutes, so you get pretty good at it after you've done a few hundred of them, but trust me it isn't worth it. Because this data is collected in uncompleted aircraft, for many manufacturers it is wildly optimistic.

Gulfstream took a Citation X in on a trade and let the flight test engineers have it for qualitative testing before it was resold (this competitive analysis is something many manufaturers do, Bombardier leased and instrumented a GV, but they were disappointed in their results; Cessna sent an Experimental Test Pilot to GV initial at FSI). The engineers ballasted the X to 8 pax and put the requisite test stations and orange wire in the jet and this is what they came up with including NBAA IFR reserves:

Normal Cruise - 0.86M Range: 2,613nm
Long Range Cruise - 0.82M Range: 2,767nm
Intermediate Cruise - 0.90M Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise - 0.92M Range: 773nm
MMO - 0.93M

Takeoff distance 5,300ft.
(SL,ISA, MGTOW)

Landing distance 3,410ft.
(SL,ISA,MLW)

Initial Altitude FL 430

Direct Cost per hour: $1336.17 (GV Direct Cost is $1470.77 for comparison)


By the way, did you know that Richard Smith was the first pilot at Executive Jet to get a Citation X type rating?


Cheers





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