Furloughs @ Big Sky

[Jose Whales]

Jose,
Yes, I did do something before Mesaba. I did not wake up one morning and decide I would start flying Saabs for Northwest Airlink. I instructed and flew night freight just like everyone else, so my flying skills are adequate. Again, I am neither glad or jubilant in anyone losing their job from poor management. As long as Mesaba owns Big Sky, you can expect more of that from the "...boys and girls in MSP".

Exactly what I was referring to UNPROFESSIONALISM! Your "...boys and girls in MSP" in the near future should start getting used to MAIR using us as a growth vehicle and doing a lot of nothing with Mesaba! This is a professional career in the 121 business, and as long as you have "...boys and girls..." which I'm sure that you can't speak for ALL of them, (I'm sure that some of them don't want you to speak at all.) you'll never realize it.

Start acting like a professional and you will be treated as such. Quit running your mouth about facts that you got through the rumor mill. Be professional, find the facts, then when you have something that is not plegerized to say, THEN say it!

I'm glad you did something before Mesaba, unfortunately it doesn't sound like you learned anything from your experience.

Jose Whales

 

[sf3boy]

Jose,
If you would keep this in mind when you reread my previous response; the boys and girls I am referring to is XJ management. They like to play games with their employees, just like all the rest of the airline management types. When we furlouhged pilots, there was no call for it. All the other larger regionals received more planes and flights due to their cheaper operating costs. Mesaba is just has cheap, but for some reason management opted to not pursue ANY growth and rather chose an option to steadily downsize. That, sir, is what I meant by you can expect more of that from MSP, headquarters of Mesaba Holdings.

Now, as a stock holder of MAIR, I would like to see a better return on an investment. Loosing 250K+ per month is not exacly what I call a good vehicle for growth. Ths is poor management and lack of respect for both pilot groups on their part. Take this as you will, I am sure that you will have some more nice name calling to follow.

 

[Jose Whales]

Now, as a stock holder of MAIR, I would like to see a better return on an investment. Loosing 250K+ per month is not exacly what I call a good vehicle for growth. Ths is poor management and lack of respect for both pilot groups on their part. Take this as you will, I am sure that you will have some more nice name calling to follow. [/B]

Alas something we can agree upon! I too am an MAIR stockholder, and yes it would be nice to see a return on an investment. I am sure that everyone that does purchase stock does it for the soul purpose of being able to see a return and not a loss.

As for the name calling if you reread all of my post, no such thing occurred in any of my posts! I just simply was pointing out the obvious statements of individuals that were being unprofessional.

I honestly believe that MAIR will in fact “…absolutely grow Big Sky…”, and use the low pay structure of the pilot group to be awarded a contract. You speak of a net loss of $250,000+ a month that Big Sky is costing MAIR. To the best of my knowledge it is $263,000 a month; and that the “…15% cut in operating level…” that Big sky is undergoing came from MAIR management to get Big Sky to a $0.00 loss in thirty days. From there Big Sky needs to be at a break even/profitable mark by PYE on March 31, 2004. If/When Big sky can do that there will be “…an absorbent cash flow from MAIR to grow Big Sky…” Along with the employee terminations/furloughs, Big Sky is also returning 5 aircraft, and cutting/restructuring routes. The only “…absorbent cash flow…” I could possibly fathom are different aircraft, and the Metro will become a thing of the past. Unfortunately I neither have the time or the patience for such an event to occur. Nor do a lot of other Pilots furloughed or not. Therefore I see an increase in training for upgrades and new hires before the PYE. Optimism is not my forte, especially from management that can terminate positions after they take anywhere from an 8.57% to 6.25% raise in pay “…and for certain incentive stock options and cash bonuses based upon performance and objectives, as awarded by the board of directors.” In addition severance pay from 6 to 12 months for early termination from there new contract which began July 1, 2003 to June 30, 2004. This is all based upon which management position is held, and the information came from “Big Sky Transportation Co. Information statement Pursuant to section 14(f) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and rule 14f-1 thereunder on November 20, 2002.”

The only reason that I got on this web site and did any posting was because of the lack of respect that fellow pilots were having for other fellow pilots. I am a man of old fashioned values, and do unto others as you would wish done to you. We all need to stay professional; stays focused on our career, and keep our career professional.

 

[CWASaab]

Jose Whales,

Man for someone who claims to want professionalism and respect you sure don't give any. And your claims of doing research and trying to battle rumor with truth is lacking.

Is coming to this board and tauting Mesaba pilots by saying:

"Exactly what I was referring to UNPROFESSIONALISM! Your "...boys and girls in MSP" in the near future should start getting used to MAIR using us as a growth vehicle and doing a lot of nothing with Mesaba!"

an act of professionalism?

And what truth, what fact, is there to back up your claims that Big Sky will grow at Mesaba's expense? No offense, but you say in your post this is based on your feelings, your assumptions. What makes your 'honest beliefs' and the 'only thing you could possibly fathom' truth rather than rumor?

And as far as your claim to know Mesaba's contract, and Mesaba, well you don't know as much as you claim. Our contract isn't perfect, in fact it isn't even great, but it is more than six years old. And more to the point we are working hard and remain committed to getting an even better contract this time around.

some corrections:
Trip Guarantee (I believe this is equivalent to what you said "awarded the trip paid for the trip"): We have this.

Premium Pay: We have this.

Draft Pay (I honestly don't know what this is at Big Sky, but my best guess is premium pay for Junior Manning): We have this.

28 Day Schedule with 8 off: Most of our bid periods are 30 days with 10 off minimum.

Min day, trip rig and duty rig: We do not have these, yet.

Ready Reserve (airport reserve): Yeah, we have it.

The big difference, and one big thing to keep in mind is that we are at the end ouf our contract, about to get a new one. Big Sky is just starting theirs. Many of the things we do not currently have, i.e. trip and duty rigs, min day, and min days off are in line for improvement and have been proposed at the table by our NC. And we are committed to achieving these in our contract, in addition to scope that will not allow the current scenario at big sky to continue.

And as far as your rip on the flying skills of Mesaba pilots because our airplanes have autopilots, well please refresh your mesaba history. Many pilots at this company have flown the Metro, we did operate them until a few years ago, or didn't you know that? Oh, and that was real professional of you, by the way.

I'm glad you feel that your pay rates for the Metro are great, however since you honestly feel that jets are the future for Big Sky how do your jet rates stack up?

Our contract certainly has room for improvement, but it is still a good contract for what it is, a six+ year old agreement.

I feel for all of the pilots at Big Sky who are facing furloughs, I don't wish that on anyone. However seeing as how mesaba has already hired about 20 pilots in the past few months those folks could have had jobs over here at XJ, if things between our MEC and your pilot group gone better a year ago. While it is true that our MEC has acknowledged that ALPA dropped the ball at Big Sky, they also say that they were lied too by their peers at Big Sky. Our MEC was told that they would have a chance to talk with Big Sky pilots before the vote took place, meanwhile the vote was ongoing.

I wish you guys the best, but make no mistake; I want scope that takes you guys out of the Mesaba picture.

 

[major payne]

alpa is mesaba's first mistake, but I guess w/your management you need it!!!!!!!

 

[12GO]

CWASaab,

What is the current scenario at Big Sky that you are talking about putting an end to, and what kind of scope would you purpose to to end it?

 

[CWASaab]

WideGlide,

The scenario I am referring too is MAIR Holdings using the bank account built on the profits of Mesaba Airlines to purchase a non-ALPA airline (actually any airline) and run it seperately from XJ. Using the profits built on our concessions back in '96 to purchase what amounts to a bargining threat is not working for me.

The scope that I am talking about will, ideally, prohibit MAIR Holdings from operating an airline other than Mesaba Airlines. Any future purchase of another airline would require them being absorbed into XJ.

As to how we deal with Big Sky, I am not sure. Sell or merge seem to be the options. This makes successorship an issue as well, in my opinion Mesaba must be the carrier left standing, even if we are sold.

 

[Jose Whales]

WideGlide,

The scenario I am referring too is MAIR Holdings using the bank account built on the profits of Mesaba Airlines to purchase a non-ALPA airline (actually any airline) and run it seperately from XJ. Using the profits built on our concessions back in '96 to purchase what amounts to a bargining threat is not working for me.

The scope that I am talking about will, ideally, prohibit MAIR Holdings from operating an airline other than Mesaba Airlines. Any future purchase of another airline would require them being absorbed into XJ.

So when are you going to realize that the money that MAIR has banked due to your concessions is MAIR's MONEY AND NOT YOURS! Nor is it Mesaba Airline's money, and MAIR can due with it what they please. And just who are you going to get to agree or even sign this "Scope" you keep having fantasys about? HELLO? Your talking about corperate america here!! Yea I would be upset if I were you, but quite frankly you nor Tom Wychor or even ALPA can do anything about it!

Jose Whales

 

[metrodriver]

SF3 boy, I wish you had a little bit more respect for the former female CP BSA had. She had to fight hard for her career. She did not go to Atlas. It was Polar, and a lot of people left that particular class she was in (from 5 people that I know that went there during that time only one got on line, everyone else quit during training aft they found out what that company really was about). I don't know about her frontier story nor what she has been doing after that. She was a very good chief pilot, she just had to fight against a do that was very single minded (something like a single-pilot pilot flying in a 2 crew environment).
You better get your facts straight before putting someones career all over the www.

Silent Dave, do we know each other?

Alpa didn't want anything to do with BSA: to small a group earning too low a wage = not financially attractive for ALPA.
UTU looked beyond that. They cover a very wide range of transportation jobs: city bus drivers in LA, school bus drivers, railroad folks, and BSA pilots, a few of them

former CP mentioned above, if you read this, send me a pm, just wondering how you're doing.

 

[Simon Says]

Yea I would be upset if I were you, but quite frankly you nor Tom Wychor or even ALPA can do anything about it!

Jose Whales

You make a few good points in your previous posts, but this comment is not one of them. Let me put it to you this way. Mesaba pilots want Scope (a very strikable issue) Big Sky must be off of MAIR books or our senority lists be joined and work under one contract. This means we will not sign a contract (ie Strike) without it.
So when Mesaba pilots have a contract Big Sky will face being sold (more likely shut down.) or joining up on our contract and list. Otherwise we will strike!

I can tell you this Jose, Big Sky will have dramatic changes when we have a signed contract.

Think of it this way, as long as Big Sky is owned by MAIR and we work under seperate work rules any contract we sign will be worthless.

I dont know how many other ways to get this point across.

And to let you know what we can do about it is well spelled out in the Railway Labor Act callled Self Help.

 

[Simon Says]

By the way, I don't want to see any of you guys out on the streets. Ideally I would like to see one big list. Big Sky and Mesaba. One big happy family.

 

[cathal]

Jose Whales, and the rest of you,
Jose, your posts have been good to up to that last one. Some of our prople here at XJ have said some dumb/innaccurate things on this thread, but I have to take issue with who's money is who's among other things.

So, the taxes you pay is the goverment's money, right? Just because someone has money doesn't mean the have the right to spend it however they please. If that were true, buying and selling any commodity would be legal, i.e. drugs, sex, weapons.
We are often legally, and always morally bound to see that money is spent in a productive, non-harmful way.

MAIR's money should be spent on those who earned it so that the earners can enjoy the fruits of their labor and company growth so that they can earn more. Ideally, the stockholders would earn money by actually risking some of their own capital and the labor force would earn money based on their own contribution to the profits. This is not what is happening.

We are watching our owners and management steal the money we earn them. Our leaders get enormous bonuses for the excellent service I and others provide. They then turn around and tell me that the $25,000 I earned last year was too much, that I need to give it back. Now, why would I want to give it back? So that our leadership can get larger bonuses and hide more of our profits in your losses? Are you beginning to understand why we don't like having you guys owned by MAIR? It was immoral of them to buy you with our money. We don't do our jobs for this reason, we do it for the reasons I stated in the previous paragraph, to earn ourselves more money.

As far as XJ folks living in a fantasy world, well, I have to say that it is a shame to think that you don't believe anyone can make a difference. Yes, this is Corporate America, where everything had been rosy enough. That is until the workers of this country realized that very few of our CEOs are truly leaders that we could depend on to look out for the best interests of their company, and therefore those that allow them their lifestyle. Where would we be without folks who didn't fight the tough fight and stand up for themselves when no one else would? I'm not going to give you a history lesson here, but the reason we have any rights at all is because someone has stood up for each of those rights. We are standing up for ourselves, no matter how hard that will be.

Please, enough with the ALPA bashing. No one who bashes them is remembering what ALPA has and will continue to do for all airline pilots. Please read the "Flying the Line" vols I and II again. Please note that the only reason we can go on strike is because we belong to them. Without ALPA, XJ could not fight this moral fight because other NW airlines would simply take our routes. Instead we are bound to support each other by not taking advantage of the fact that someone else is standing up for our rights. ALPA has its representation problems because pilots do have a hard time standing up for one another against their company, and pilots will take advantage of good times to get paid more than other pilots ( this includes me). Please tell me why you signed the contract that was signed? If you had stood up for one that was at least industry standard, we would have so much more respect for your group.

Long post summed up- ALPA has saved many more careers than it has lost. If it has problems, it is because of it's members, not it's concept. Big Sky has lost alot of the profits I have earned that I desevre a part of. Your contract was shameful. It said that any flying job is better than no flying job. We have almost no respect for your group or company because of these reasons. Individual flying skills are completely irrelevant to this, and taking it in the a@S isn't paying your dues, it's getting B@TTf@cked plain and simple. We're both experiencing that right now.

 

[Jose Whales]

Cathal,

Yes I agree that the money MA made for MAIR "SHOULD" be spent on who made it! Key word "SHOULD", as you put it. Not legally bound to do so.

Tom Wychor told me a story about how ALPA came into an airline to represent their pilot group, and because they were a small group and ALPA wanted to "...use them to set presidence for the rest of the ALPA community..." those pilots were forced to the street because of the company having to shut its doors. I cannot remember the specifics of the story, ask Mr. Wychor about that. Mr. Wychor told me this story just before I went and voted for this new contract, and it swayed the way I voted. I think it would have been the same for you. I am not ALPA bashing here but as you well know ALPA has a track record here that cannot be ignored.

I still cannot see how our contract is shameful. Is it because of the low pay for the Jets? Well I agree that it should be higher, however every Regional that has a United Express contract has taken concessions on their jet pay so that United can recover from bankrupsy protection with a sound business plan. We here at Big Sky cannot take the credit for that. There are several things in our contract that you call shameful in one breath, and in the next are trying to get added to your own contract.

Simon Says,
You need to go back and reread the Ralway and Labor act and I advise reading the self help paragraph again. You are taking it out of context. I would also reread the first paragraph of the act that defines employee representation of a collective barganing agreement and representation of an employment group by a Union that is in place.

Enough said on this! This post was to simply point out that we as pilots should act professional to a fellow Aviator that is or has been Furloughed. Not to discuss contract issues, slinging mud back and forth (at whitch I am guilty of)! It is unfortunate that the "we" you refer to has no respect for us as a pilot group or our company. I have lost respect for our company as well, but I have not nor will I ever loose respect for an individual for voting in a contract under the conditions we were under. I have nothing but respect for you, and your fellow aviators! Good luck on your contract negotiations, and I hope all can be resolved without a srike.

Jose Whales

 

[100LL... Again!]

Immoral, unethical, and stupid are three different things.

Cathal, if mesaba mgmt was really stealing from you, you could take them to court.

You simply are underpaid. That may constitute theft in your mind. From a big-picture cosmic view of right and wrong you may be correct.

However, the fruits of your labor are your paycheck. Don't like it? Negotiate more (which I know you are in the middle of) or quit. The company's profits belong to them. I don't like it either, but it is true.

Point is, mgmt has every LEGAL right to do what they do, whether it is "fair" or not.

I just grow tired of all the moralistic references that get used. It's just business. Many pilot groups have lost control of their compensation. That's just how it's going to be for a while. Hopefully, it will change someday. Blaming other pilot groups for our problems will fix nothing.

A scapegoat is a nice thing to have though.

 

[CWASaab]

Jose Whales,

I do realize that the money in the bank is in MAIR Holdings account. That doesn't change the fact that those funds were built from Mesaba Airlines. Having seen what MAIR Holdings can and will do (by this I am referring to buying BigSky) with that money I think it is time to exert some control. We can exert control through our contract, especially in terms of scope. As Simon Says mentioned, scope is a strikable issue for most all of us here at Mesaba. I believe this message has been taken directly to management, and we keep trying to send that message.

That means no contract with out the scope that achieves our goals. Therefore the company will have to sign if they ever want to resolve this mess. At this point the entire contract seems like a fantasy, but a contract without scope won't be worth a thing and won't get my vote. Scope is a must have.