Furloughs @ Big Sky

[SilentDave]

Well, ALPA may have dropped the ball years back, but the Big Sky pilots did themselves no favors by not wanting to be on the seniority list at Mesaba.

It was never even offered. Please get your facts straight.
Love,
SilentDave

 

[12GO]

Thank you Othello, you seem to have reliable sources, and my respect for your MEC actually went up a notch when he acknowledged the error.

Silent Dave, this happened before your time!

 

[Metropilot]

Tom ,

I think Davey E. was posting in reference to the Mesaba seniority list.

 

[sf3boy]

The story that Mesaba pilots got was that our Union leadership went to Montana to work out a merger of the seniority lists. Mesaba management then told the Big Sky pilots that if you proceed with talking to XJ ALPA, we will shut down the whole operation. XJ ALPA was then told to go home by the Big SKy pilots. Is this not what happened? If it isn't, could someone please inform me of the truth. There seems to be a lot of people on this thread that know more details than me. BTW, is Big Sky's C.P. still the one that washed out at Atlas and then let go at Frontier? My buddy said that she might still be at Big Sky. Not trying to start a fight there either. Everyone knows that the Mesaba C.P.'s are somewhat less than "on the ball."

 

[SilentDave]

It sure as heck didn't happen before my time you punk. Talk about what you know, not what you don't WideA$$.

Here's my version of the story, you're mileage my vary. I commute into BIL for work. A buddy of mine picks me up at BIL International (thanks again PoleSurfer) and tells me of an informational meeting at the Brew Pub. He says that Mesaba wants to buy us and that some folks at the Brew Pub are buying dinner and have lots of neat info on how we get to keep our jobs (and feed our kids) AND be at the top of the seniority list of the next up and coming hot stuff commuter airline. The next thing I know is they're asking us to vote for this goofy contract. And this is from our own people. ALPA and the rest of the associated beer buying (thanks for that) twerps didn't even bother to show up until AFTER the vote was cast. Great timing guys. Then they decide to raise heck and print all kinds of nasty adds. in the Gazette and everything. Doh! But we did get lots of really cool ALPA stickers,which in our beer (thanks again) enlightened state were appiled all over our CEO's truck. Mesaba had nothing to do with shutting down Big Sky. We were doing a fine job on our own, thank you very much.

As for our previous chief pilot, it appears that she did run upon some bad luck. I have to admit that she was the most pro-pilot chief pilot I ever worked with. Too bad things didn't work out for her.

Any more questions, please PM me. I prefer to stick to my name, but you caught me a weak point (too much Shiner and Wild Turkey).
Love,
SilentDave

 

[100LL... Again!]

Why are you dragging someone's career history out when it has nothing to do with the topic?

What has this person ever done to you?

Tacky.

 

[12GO]

Thank you Metropilot,

and excuse me SilentDave! (who ahhhhh!)

I misunderstood your post. I thought the thread was refering to ALPA's rejection of Big Sky Airline (in the beginning). That was the acknowledgment made by Othello's MEC and was exactly what I was responding to.

I think you may have been confused.

ALPA's rejection of Big Sky Airlines did in fact occur before your time.

I will repectfully acknowledge the fact that ALPA's road show did occur much later, and I am sorry if you missed it.

Oh Well, get some counselling dude or get over it!

 

[SilentDave]

You're still clueless WidePunk. How did you detemine that was before my time? I WAS there when ALPA decided they didn't want us. It was late 98 or early 99. It wasn't that long ago. Once again- please refrain your comments to things you are informed about.
Love,
SilentDave

 

[Jose Whales]

How many is that? 2 maybe 3 planes???

You obviously need some professionalism manners! When a fellow Aviator is furloughed it is not a joking matter! There are 20 pilots that will be on the street without a job, along with an untold number of customer service agents, and mechanics, some have new born baby's that need formula, doctor visits and Pampers. Are you and your poor since of humor going to step up to the plate and offer to help them out? I think you should since you have not an ounce of professionalism in your bones. Did you see any jokes relayed from Big Sky Pilots about your Furloughs? I think not!


Quote from "Simon Says"

"I believe Masaba MEC gave Big Sky a chance to come onboard with us for a 1 for 1 seniority. Big Sky pilots would take a chance of losing it all for that one for one seniority, but also would work under our contract. We were strung along by the MEC of Big Sky. Masaba pilot group tried to tell them not to believe the lies of management. We were not heard.

Now do you believe us? By the way Scope is a shrinkable issue for Mesaba pilots. Do not believe for one second that we will sign a contract that does not include it. So guess where the remaining Big Sky pilots go on our list. At the bottom."

You’re definitely wrong! I spoke to your MEC and a 1 for 1 was not offered. I want you to tell me in all your infinite wisdom how a workforce that is protected under a collective bargaining agreement for the United Transportation Union (UTU, which by the way is MORE than three times the size of ALPA) can walk away from that agreement and go into an ALPA contract. Then I would like you to tell me if you would do it after ALPA turned your fellow pilot group down TWICE, not once, TWO SEPERATE TIMES!! Knowing full well that it would mean that you and your family would be unemployed in a matter of 2 months! I have a copy of your contract and there are a lot of things that you don’t have that we do. Things like awarded the trip paid for the trip, minimum daily guarantee, Duty Rig, Trip Rig, NO airport reserve. Premium pay, Draft pay, 28 day schedule with a guarantee of 8 days off. Further more we are the highest paid 19 seat turbo prop drivers out there! I would expect to be no where else but on the bottom of your seniority list, such as where you would be if you came here. Why would I go in front of someone else that has been at Masaba, “paying their dues” with respect to the company and their idiosyncrasies.

Quote from "sf3boy"

Wow, that was a lot man. Hope you feel a little better now. Were you a Lone Star guy? Aspen Air? Or were you one of the stellar Big Sky originals?

Again a lack of professionalism and knowledge on your behalf. The "...stellar Big Sky originals..." that you refer to are flying Metro III's and Metro 23's. Either aircraft would most likely eat you for lunch! Ask any former Metro Pilot, you might have to go to some of the major airlines and seek out the upper management. They know that it takes a real "stick and rudder" pilot to fly them. We hand fly these with no auto pilot at night around towering rock piles, slinging ice, in and out of class B, NDB approaches ILS’s to minimums, etc. And with the junior FO at Big Sky having over 2000 hours in the thing I'm sure you could learn a thing or two from him. Auto pilots and Flight director usage can be obtained in a book. Flying skills cannot! The Majors understand that, unfortunately you do not. It also is apparent that you have done nothing but fly at Mesaba, have you even done anything to pay your dues in the aviation business? Most likely the answer to that is NO! This is probably your first airline job, you have no other experience to speak from, you most likely went from flight instructor to FO at a Regional and now you think your a GOD and knowledge of how airlines are run.

The unprofessional that each and every one of you show to fellow Pilots is sickening! You should all take a step back and realize that it can happen to ANY ONE OF YOU!! You all should realize now that the Airline Industry is WAY TO SMALL of a world to be making selfish comments like these! You never know if the guy sitting to your right today could be the person that interviews you for a job tomorrow!

Jose Whales

 

[sf3boy]

Jose,
Yes, I did do something before Mesaba. I did not wake up one morning and decide I would start flying Saabs for Northwest Airlink. I instructed and flew night freight just like everyone else, so my flying skills are adequate. Again, I am neither glad or jubilent in anyone losing their job from poor management. As long as Mesaba owns Big Sky, you can expect more of that from the boys and girls in MSP.

 

[Jose Whales]

Jose,
Yes, I did do something before Mesaba. I did not wake up one morning and decide I would start flying Saabs for Northwest Airlink. I instructed and flew night freight just like everyone else, so my flying skills are adequate. Again, I am neither glad or jubilant in anyone losing their job from poor management. As long as Mesaba owns Big Sky, you can expect more of that from the "...boys and girls in MSP".

Exactly what I was referring to UNPROFESSIONALISM! Your "...boys and girls in MSP" in the near future should start getting used to MAIR using us as a growth vehicle and doing a lot of nothing with Mesaba! This is a professional career in the 121 business, and as long as you have "...boys and girls..." which I'm sure that you can't speak for ALL of them, (I'm sure that some of them don't want you to speak at all.) you'll never realize it.

Start acting like a professional and you will be treated as such. Quit running your mouth about facts that you got through the rumor mill. Be professional, find the facts, then when you have something that is not plegerized to say, THEN say it!

I'm glad you did something before Mesaba, unfortunately it doesn't sound like you learned anything from your experience.

Jose Whales

 

[sf3boy]

Jose,
If you would keep this in mind when you reread my previous response; the boys and girls I am referring to is XJ management. They like to play games with their employees, just like all the rest of the airline management types. When we furlouhged pilots, there was no call for it. All the other larger regionals received more planes and flights due to their cheaper operating costs. Mesaba is just has cheap, but for some reason management opted to not pursue ANY growth and rather chose an option to steadily downsize. That, sir, is what I meant by you can expect more of that from MSP, headquarters of Mesaba Holdings.

Now, as a stock holder of MAIR, I would like to see a better return on an investment. Loosing 250K+ per month is not exacly what I call a good vehicle for growth. Ths is poor management and lack of respect for both pilot groups on their part. Take this as you will, I am sure that you will have some more nice name calling to follow.

 

[Jose Whales]

Now, as a stock holder of MAIR, I would like to see a better return on an investment. Loosing 250K+ per month is not exacly what I call a good vehicle for growth. Ths is poor management and lack of respect for both pilot groups on their part. Take this as you will, I am sure that you will have some more nice name calling to follow. [/B]

Alas something we can agree upon! I too am an MAIR stockholder, and yes it would be nice to see a return on an investment. I am sure that everyone that does purchase stock does it for the soul purpose of being able to see a return and not a loss.

As for the name calling if you reread all of my post, no such thing occurred in any of my posts! I just simply was pointing out the obvious statements of individuals that were being unprofessional.

I honestly believe that MAIR will in fact “…absolutely grow Big Sky…”, and use the low pay structure of the pilot group to be awarded a contract. You speak of a net loss of $250,000+ a month that Big Sky is costing MAIR. To the best of my knowledge it is $263,000 a month; and that the “…15% cut in operating level…” that Big sky is undergoing came from MAIR management to get Big Sky to a $0.00 loss in thirty days. From there Big Sky needs to be at a break even/profitable mark by PYE on March 31, 2004. If/When Big sky can do that there will be “…an absorbent cash flow from MAIR to grow Big Sky…” Along with the employee terminations/furloughs, Big Sky is also returning 5 aircraft, and cutting/restructuring routes. The only “…absorbent cash flow…” I could possibly fathom are different aircraft, and the Metro will become a thing of the past. Unfortunately I neither have the time or the patience for such an event to occur. Nor do a lot of other Pilots furloughed or not. Therefore I see an increase in training for upgrades and new hires before the PYE. Optimism is not my forte, especially from management that can terminate positions after they take anywhere from an 8.57% to 6.25% raise in pay “…and for certain incentive stock options and cash bonuses based upon performance and objectives, as awarded by the board of directors.” In addition severance pay from 6 to 12 months for early termination from there new contract which began July 1, 2003 to June 30, 2004. This is all based upon which management position is held, and the information came from “Big Sky Transportation Co. Information statement Pursuant to section 14(f) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and rule 14f-1 thereunder on November 20, 2002.”

The only reason that I got on this web site and did any posting was because of the lack of respect that fellow pilots were having for other fellow pilots. I am a man of old fashioned values, and do unto others as you would wish done to you. We all need to stay professional; stays focused on our career, and keep our career professional.

 

[CWASaab]

Jose Whales,

Man for someone who claims to want professionalism and respect you sure don't give any. And your claims of doing research and trying to battle rumor with truth is lacking.

Is coming to this board and tauting Mesaba pilots by saying:

"Exactly what I was referring to UNPROFESSIONALISM! Your "...boys and girls in MSP" in the near future should start getting used to MAIR using us as a growth vehicle and doing a lot of nothing with Mesaba!"

an act of professionalism?

And what truth, what fact, is there to back up your claims that Big Sky will grow at Mesaba's expense? No offense, but you say in your post this is based on your feelings, your assumptions. What makes your 'honest beliefs' and the 'only thing you could possibly fathom' truth rather than rumor?

And as far as your claim to know Mesaba's contract, and Mesaba, well you don't know as much as you claim. Our contract isn't perfect, in fact it isn't even great, but it is more than six years old. And more to the point we are working hard and remain committed to getting an even better contract this time around.

some corrections:
Trip Guarantee (I believe this is equivalent to what you said "awarded the trip paid for the trip"): We have this.

Premium Pay: We have this.

Draft Pay (I honestly don't know what this is at Big Sky, but my best guess is premium pay for Junior Manning): We have this.

28 Day Schedule with 8 off: Most of our bid periods are 30 days with 10 off minimum.

Min day, trip rig and duty rig: We do not have these, yet.

Ready Reserve (airport reserve): Yeah, we have it.

The big difference, and one big thing to keep in mind is that we are at the end ouf our contract, about to get a new one. Big Sky is just starting theirs. Many of the things we do not currently have, i.e. trip and duty rigs, min day, and min days off are in line for improvement and have been proposed at the table by our NC. And we are committed to achieving these in our contract, in addition to scope that will not allow the current scenario at big sky to continue.

And as far as your rip on the flying skills of Mesaba pilots because our airplanes have autopilots, well please refresh your mesaba history. Many pilots at this company have flown the Metro, we did operate them until a few years ago, or didn't you know that? Oh, and that was real professional of you, by the way.

I'm glad you feel that your pay rates for the Metro are great, however since you honestly feel that jets are the future for Big Sky how do your jet rates stack up?

Our contract certainly has room for improvement, but it is still a good contract for what it is, a six+ year old agreement.

I feel for all of the pilots at Big Sky who are facing furloughs, I don't wish that on anyone. However seeing as how mesaba has already hired about 20 pilots in the past few months those folks could have had jobs over here at XJ, if things between our MEC and your pilot group gone better a year ago. While it is true that our MEC has acknowledged that ALPA dropped the ball at Big Sky, they also say that they were lied too by their peers at Big Sky. Our MEC was told that they would have a chance to talk with Big Sky pilots before the vote took place, meanwhile the vote was ongoing.

I wish you guys the best, but make no mistake; I want scope that takes you guys out of the Mesaba picture.

 

[major payne]

alpa is mesaba's first mistake, but I guess w/your management you need it!!!!!!!

 

[12GO]

CWASaab,

What is the current scenario at Big Sky that you are talking about putting an end to, and what kind of scope would you purpose to to end it?

 

[CWASaab]

WideGlide,

The scenario I am referring too is MAIR Holdings using the bank account built on the profits of Mesaba Airlines to purchase a non-ALPA airline (actually any airline) and run it seperately from XJ. Using the profits built on our concessions back in '96 to purchase what amounts to a bargining threat is not working for me.

The scope that I am talking about will, ideally, prohibit MAIR Holdings from operating an airline other than Mesaba Airlines. Any future purchase of another airline would require them being absorbed into XJ.

As to how we deal with Big Sky, I am not sure. Sell or merge seem to be the options. This makes successorship an issue as well, in my opinion Mesaba must be the carrier left standing, even if we are sold.

 

[Jose Whales]

WideGlide,

The scenario I am referring too is MAIR Holdings using the bank account built on the profits of Mesaba Airlines to purchase a non-ALPA airline (actually any airline) and run it seperately from XJ. Using the profits built on our concessions back in '96 to purchase what amounts to a bargining threat is not working for me.

The scope that I am talking about will, ideally, prohibit MAIR Holdings from operating an airline other than Mesaba Airlines. Any future purchase of another airline would require them being absorbed into XJ.

So when are you going to realize that the money that MAIR has banked due to your concessions is MAIR's MONEY AND NOT YOURS! Nor is it Mesaba Airline's money, and MAIR can due with it what they please. And just who are you going to get to agree or even sign this "Scope" you keep having fantasys about? HELLO? Your talking about corperate america here!! Yea I would be upset if I were you, but quite frankly you nor Tom Wychor or even ALPA can do anything about it!

Jose Whales

 

[metrodriver]

SF3 boy, I wish you had a little bit more respect for the former female CP BSA had. She had to fight hard for her career. She did not go to Atlas. It was Polar, and a lot of people left that particular class she was in (from 5 people that I know that went there during that time only one got on line, everyone else quit during training aft they found out what that company really was about). I don't know about her frontier story nor what she has been doing after that. She was a very good chief pilot, she just had to fight against a do that was very single minded (something like a single-pilot pilot flying in a 2 crew environment).
You better get your facts straight before putting someones career all over the www.

Silent Dave, do we know each other?

Alpa didn't want anything to do with BSA: to small a group earning too low a wage = not financially attractive for ALPA.
UTU looked beyond that. They cover a very wide range of transportation jobs: city bus drivers in LA, school bus drivers, railroad folks, and BSA pilots, a few of them

former CP mentioned above, if you read this, send me a pm, just wondering how you're doing.

 

[Simon Says]

Yea I would be upset if I were you, but quite frankly you nor Tom Wychor or even ALPA can do anything about it!

Jose Whales

You make a few good points in your previous posts, but this comment is not one of them. Let me put it to you this way. Mesaba pilots want Scope (a very strikable issue) Big Sky must be off of MAIR books or our senority lists be joined and work under one contract. This means we will not sign a contract (ie Strike) without it.
So when Mesaba pilots have a contract Big Sky will face being sold (more likely shut down.) or joining up on our contract and list. Otherwise we will strike!

I can tell you this Jose, Big Sky will have dramatic changes when we have a signed contract.

Think of it this way, as long as Big Sky is owned by MAIR and we work under seperate work rules any contract we sign will be worthless.

I dont know how many other ways to get this point across.

And to let you know what we can do about it is well spelled out in the Railway Labor Act callled Self Help.