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Furloughs and junior manning

skypine69

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I had lunch with a buddy that is at American Eagle the other day while I was on a layover and he told me that scheduling is junior manning pilots even though they have pilots on furlough. My question to those of you that fly that junior man trip is this: What the He!! is wrong with you??? Do you care that little about your fellow pilot that you will step on their backs to make a couple of extra bucks? Dont answer the phone on your days off or if they get you while on duty call in sick for it. I cant believe this is happening!!!! Put yourself in the position of the guy on furlough! You are collecting unemployment and your "buddy" is out making time and a half at your expense.

Disgusting!
 

boscenter

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Not as bad as those at CAL who flat out pick up open time w/ pilots on the street...
 

skypine27

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Bingo

From one 'pine to another, well put man. I like it when I have to work 16 hour duty days or get fired because the company is too cheap to hire anyone new.
 

Boeingman

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A lot
boscenter said:
Not as bad as those at CAL who flat out pick up open time w/ pilots on the street...

CAL? You can't possibly be foolish enough to think that this is just happening here and no where else.
 

ifly4food

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I don't know of anyone who likes being jr. manned.
Generally, jr. manning is involuntary, i.e. the pilot has no choice. To refuse the assignment or call in sick while on duty to avoid it would be an illegal job action under the RLA and subject the pilot to termination.

What's bad is companies where pilots are furloughed and they are still picking up trips. CAL was mentioned.
Delta pilots are still putting in Green Slips. Now THAT's sad. I can't believe these are the same individuals that have the nerve to lecture us for "destroying the profession" with RJs. In my view, picking up trips voluntarily while your fellow pilots are on furlough is a form of scabbing driven by pure greed.
Sad times we are in.
 

FlyingSig

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ifly4food said:
Generally, jr. manning is involuntary, i.e. the pilot has no choice. To refuse the assignment or call in sick while on duty to avoid it would be an illegal job action under the RLA and subject the pilot to termination.

You sure about that illegal job action and RLA bit? I'm gonna take a stab without the facts to back me up, but my understanding is that the RLA doesn't govern a contract once it is signed, it is simply the "rules" of creating/amending a contract. Once a contract is signed, if it is perceived to be violated, either side can grieve the dispute in a predetermined manner (generally a system board with a neutral arbitrator...not employed by the NMB).

In the case of refusing an assignment, if the company perceives the individual pilot did not adhere to the rules of such assignment, disipline can be involved. But this discipline will not include the NMB, court injunctions, a PEB, congress, the president, nor the Sec. of Trans. (who does not fall under the RLA, but somehow has managed to get involved in recent years). These are all things that would happen with an "illegal job action" vs. individual disipline.

As for jr. manning itself, I remember the CoEx contract said you had to be "legal and available" to accept the assignment. Lots of things could make you not legal and unavailable and I was always happy to discuss this with my chief pilot the next time I came to the airport ..... Delta has somewhat similar wording, but the bottom line is if reporting to work means you have to leave your 2 year old home alone, you don't have to go in.

Don't forget, it's your legal duty FAR wise to inform the company you are unable to fly if you feel sick or fatigued... to do otherwise puts your licence in jeapordy.



What's bad is companies where pilots are furloughed and they are still picking up trips. CAL was mentioned.
Delta pilots are still putting in Green Slips. Now THAT's sad. I can't believe these are the same individuals that have the nerve to lecture us for "destroying the profession" with RJs. In my view, picking up trips voluntarily while your fellow pilots are on furlough is a form of scabbing driven by pure greed.
Sad times we are in.

How true this is... at DAL however, most of the folks that are greedslipping probably couldn't point out the differance between an RJ and an ATR in Atlanta neverless be aware of the effects the regional carriers are having on their airline.... all they see is $$$$
 

skypine69

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To make myself clear I am talking about any pilot that flys a trip that should have been covered by a reserve. It seems very easy to me to get out of it......1) dont answer your phone unless you know who it is. 2) If they get while at work for a later date, when that day rolls around simply call in sick.
Maybe I have living in a fantasy world thinking that we would all pull together. I guess its all about the money for me me me!
Sad!
 

skydiverdriver

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It seems that IFF feels that anything he does to help out his fellow pilots is illegal, and could subject him to termination. Well, that may be true. We had several pilots terminated before our strike, and we asked for your help and were refused for this reason. Sometimes you have to do things that are "illegal" to get what you want or need. We did it for you, but it seems that many people are not willing to do it for someone else.
 

Freight Dog

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Doesn't make sense IFF...

You mean you can't say... "OOOPS... sorry I JUST had a beer" and especially on your day off without getting canned? Naaaaaaaaw!!!!

Not to mention if it's for days ahead... you can't call in sick?!
 

ifly4food

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Sig:
FlyingSig said:
You sure about that illegal job action and RLA bit? I'm gonna take a stab without the facts to back me up, but my understanding is that the RLA doesn't govern a contract once it is signed, it is simply the "rules" of creating/amending a contract. Once a contract is signed, if it is perceived to be violated, either side can grieve the dispute in a predetermined manner (generally a system board with a neutral arbitrator...not employed by the NMB).

The RLA differs from the NLRA in that an "organized service interruption" (self help) is illegal except under certain conditions. It was designed during the railroad days to prevent labor disputes from interrupting service. It governs before, during, and after contracts are signed. The only conditions self help it legal is the endgame of negotiations when both parties are released to a cooling off period which expires without an agreement.

In short, calling in sick and refusing trips to support furloughed pilots would be illegal self help. It would subject you to being fired and your union to being fined. This is supported in both the Comair and Delta negotiations when a judge ruled both parties had engaged in illegal self help by refusing overtime and calling in sick. An injunction was issued prohibiting such action.

SDD:
I'm not sure where you're going with this one. I suggested it would be illegal to refuse a jr. man or extension, but nothing is stopping pilots from not picking up "greed trips". How did we get to a lack of support for Comair?
BTW, for the last time, if you want to carry out an illegal job action and expose yourself and your MEC to that risk, that's fine. Just don't ask another group to take that risk for you. Also don't be bitter that we wouldn't risk our jobs to "show support" for you.

Freight Dog, Skypine:
Let me be clear. If you're home, then DUH, don't answer the phone.
I'm talking about when you call in range and you get the "call crew scheduling" message. Not much you can do about that one.
 
Last edited:

skydiverdriver

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Well,
Our guys DID do some things that were "illegal", for you, and you were unwilling to do the same. Why can't I ask you to do the same for everyone else? I suppose you can choose whatever you like, but we were happy to do it for YOU!! In fact, we did nothing wrong, as our people who were fired before the strike were doing things by the book. This is not illegal, and in fact, it's required. Most of us have flown a plane with the galley water inop from an outstation to get the flight moving, as it is not a safery concern. However, during negotiations, you would probably write it up, and make them fix it as the law requires. This is not illegal, it's actually the right way to do it.

This is all we asked you guys for during our strike, and we were refused. You sent money, and grumbled about informational picketing. Well, perhaps you will feel different if you ever have to go on strike. We are one company, we should have been on strike together. Good luck to you.
 

FlyingSig

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ifly4food said:
The RLA differs from the NLRA in that an "organized service interruption" (self help) is illegal except under certain conditions. It was designed during the railroad days to prevent labor disputes from interrupting service.

Agreed. However the key term I think you're misapplying (in my argument, but not SDD's) is "organized service interruption". An individual pilot refusing a jr. mann assignment for whatever reason is not an organized service interruption. Ten pilots refusing the same assignments for various reasons is not. These are all matters to be determined via the grievance process as they would be individual discipline hearings. Now if a MEC, LEC, or any union officer came out with a code-a-phone, memo, etc.. and said to refuse what's required of one's contract, or if it can be proven that any of these same people verbally told the person refusing the trip to do so, well that's a differant story....

In short, calling in sick and refusing trips to support furloughed pilots would be illegal self help.

I've known some pilots to say some stupid things, but I don't even think any of the flame-bait posters on this forum would be dumb enough (or have the balls) to tell scheduling as long as there's pilots on furlough I'm not gonna do it. If your sick, you say your sick. If you can't get daycare on your day off, sorry.

It would subject you to being fired and your union to being fined. This is supported in both the Comair and Delta negotiations when a judge ruled both parties had engaged in illegal self help by refusing overtime and calling in sick. An injunction was issued prohibiting such action.

Now maybe a Comair person can chime in as I'm not too familiar with those details but here's what I can tell you about the Delta deal.

Managment accused the union of promoting a no greenslip (voluntary overtime) campain. They did not accuse the union of telling people not to fly assignments (involuntary overtime). There's nothing in the contract that says anyone has to fly voluntary overtime but Delta decided to sue every MEC and LEC member (and a few others as well) anyway.

So they went to court to get that injunction you are so afraid of. Guess what. The judge ruled in favor of DALPA. Time passes on and DAL appeals. Another group of judges issues an injuction which basically tells DALPA not to promote a no-ot campain (which they had not been doing.... everything they ever published asked pilots not to participate, but guess the pilots didn't feel the need to fly the voluntary overtime). There was no fine, heck, there wasn't even a trial. The whole issue was settled when the contract was settled (I'm guessing Comair results were similar?)

Managment using threats during Sec. 6 negotiations is a lot differant then what the APA got themselves into over the Reno merger.

Since the whole DAL deal BTW, courts have found in favor of... somebody please correct me as to the airline, but I believe it's Airborne? that a union is indeed allowed to tell it's membership that voluntary overtime is just that, voluntary, and not flying it... even if to create leverage, is legal because according to status quo (under the RLA), if it's not against the contract then you don't have to do it...


I'm talking about when you call in range and you get the "call crew scheduling" message. Not much you can do about that one.

You're right. You'd have to call crew scheduling. No getting around making that phone call. However, if you have already flown muliple legs that day and are fatigued, it is both your duty and required by FAR's to not fly the trip so as to not jeapordize the safety of the passengers, crew, and eqipment.

IFF, it may seem like we're all picking on you, but this career has enough things to worry about without adding the stress of wondering if everything you do can get you fined/fired/disciplined. Bottom line is CYA and always err to the side of safety. It's easy to want to make sure the company makes the $$ and the pax are happy, esp in tough times like today but when it all boils down, we're just the hired help. Managment is supposed to make all the decisions and I don't get paid to cover their shortcomings..... well, I don't get paid period, but that's another story.
 
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