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furloughees going to regionals
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DougCorp-9
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Last time I checked, dual citizenship, ie holding a seniority number at 2 seperate carriers was forbidden under the ALPA constitution and bylaws. You can't have your cake and eat it too. These pilots that would fly at a regional while still holding their mainline seniority could potentialy hold a position on the regionals MEC or some other position within that particular regional's union structure. This would be a conflict of interest since they really don't "hang their hat" at that company.
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Bluto
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As I understand it, holding a seniority number at two carriers is not forbidden. All of the Continental pilots that have flowed back to Continental Express maintain two separate seniority numbers. Continental Express is likely to be spun off completely from Continental mainline, shortly, and the CAL pilots on the COEX seniority list will still maintain their seniority at CAL. Additionally, as we have seen in previous posts, many other regionals are not requiring pilots to resign their seniority. Since this is going on quite a bit recently, and since many regional pilots are not happy about this, I would expect that we would hear from ALPA if this practice were truly against the bylaws. Now, could this affect the outcome of contract negotiations and other sensitive union business? I think so. COEX is gearing up for contract negotiations now, we'll see what happens with a few hundred CAL pilots on property and voting on the contract. It should be interesting.
Marko Ramius
Vilnius Nastavnic
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Avi8tr, while I understand what you are saying in your post, it still does not answer the question that SDD and I were asking; why do some regional PILOTS want major airline furloughees do give up their numbers so badly? The reasons you gave certainly answer the question, if it was referenced to why management wants a resignation, but it doesn't answer the pilot question. DougCorp -9 brought up a good point about ALPA bylaws, although that would not apply to a furloughee from American or at carriers like Skywest. Personally, I don't think being a furloughee from another carrier automatically constitutes a conflict of interest, but that's another thread. Most of the regional pilots I talk to don't care about the resignation issue. Of those who do care, I'm sure there are many with legitimate issues like DougCorp-9 brought up, and some who unfortunately just like to see other people down. There are quite few things going on at levels far above us all that will likely make all of opinions irrelevant one way or another in a few months anyway.
Bluto
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Ramius,
Maybe I can answer part of your question. I think many furloughed and hopeful regional pilots may feel some resentment that a few major pilots expect to take the sparse coveted regional jobs available in today's market while maintaining their seniority at their former airline. A good number of the regional pilots on furlough can expect to be on the street for a year or more. Many of those people would be more than willing to give up their seniority for the opportunity at a new job, and most would be required to. Can you explain to me why furloughed major pilots would be willing to fly at a regional for a year or more at $18-30/hour when it serves no real career-advancement purpose? Is it fair that furloughed major pilots may not be required to surrender their seniority, while furloughed regional pilots are? It seems to me, (and I am not in this exact situation, so my perspective is probably a bit different from yours) that for the furloughed major pilot, taking a non-flying, relatively high-paying job would be more beneficial than flying for a regional. Clearly, this statement does not apply to everyone. A major could, theoretically, cease operations with pilots on furlough. I can understand these pilots' desire to stay marketable.
Now, having said all of that, I will also say that these are not necessarily my opinions. I feel that if you are qualified for a position and willing to accept the consequences for taking that job, you have every right to apply and accept it. If the company allows you to maintain your seniority, great. If not, that is their choice, and you don't have to take the job. I think the regional pilots that simply enjoy seeing a "big-shot major pilot" on the street without options are few and far between, though there are probably some out there. For the most part, I think regional pilots want fairness, and equality. Additionally, I can see how some currently employed regional pilots might feel slighted that these "temporary" pilots might not take the job as seriously as they do, since they know they'll be gone soon anyway. Again, these are not my feelings, just some observations. I hope that you and all major and regional pilots are recalled shortly and that we can get back to less personal discussions. Good luck.
Maybe I can answer part of your question. I think many furloughed and hopeful regional pilots may feel some resentment that a few major pilots expect to take the sparse coveted regional jobs available in today's market while maintaining their seniority at their former airline. A good number of the regional pilots on furlough can expect to be on the street for a year or more. Many of those people would be more than willing to give up their seniority for the opportunity at a new job, and most would be required to. Can you explain to me why furloughed major pilots would be willing to fly at a regional for a year or more at $18-30/hour when it serves no real career-advancement purpose? Is it fair that furloughed major pilots may not be required to surrender their seniority, while furloughed regional pilots are? It seems to me, (and I am not in this exact situation, so my perspective is probably a bit different from yours) that for the furloughed major pilot, taking a non-flying, relatively high-paying job would be more beneficial than flying for a regional. Clearly, this statement does not apply to everyone. A major could, theoretically, cease operations with pilots on furlough. I can understand these pilots' desire to stay marketable.
Now, having said all of that, I will also say that these are not necessarily my opinions. I feel that if you are qualified for a position and willing to accept the consequences for taking that job, you have every right to apply and accept it. If the company allows you to maintain your seniority, great. If not, that is their choice, and you don't have to take the job. I think the regional pilots that simply enjoy seeing a "big-shot major pilot" on the street without options are few and far between, though there are probably some out there. For the most part, I think regional pilots want fairness, and equality. Additionally, I can see how some currently employed regional pilots might feel slighted that these "temporary" pilots might not take the job as seriously as they do, since they know they'll be gone soon anyway. Again, these are not my feelings, just some observations. I hope that you and all major and regional pilots are recalled shortly and that we can get back to less personal discussions. Good luck.
Marko Ramius
Vilnius Nastavnic
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Bluto,
I can give you my reasons for wanting to work at a regional airline. First is the simple fact that I love to fly, yeah it's a lot of work sometimes, but I still love it. The other reason is purely economic. While many furloughees have gotten good paying jobs in other industries, many of us haven't been able to secure any of those jobs and are sitting around collecting unemployment. While I don't consider my lifestyle(house, car, etc)particularly extravagent, it certainly wasn't designed around unemployment income, so while I have savings I can see that unless I get a better source of income things will get tighter down the line. I'm not ex-military, so I don't have the option of going back into the service, and my degree is in aviation which doesn't exactly light up non-aviation employers eyes. Unemployment pays more than Burger King and similar jobs, so that's out as well. So I come back to what I do best, and what most people are willing to pay me for-flying airplanes. As far as major airline furloughees not doing a good job at a regional, because they have a number at major to go back to one day, I think that's unlikely. Those who don't want the job probably won't apply for it in the first place. I'm sure that there would be slackers, but every airline has those anyway-you can't weed them all out. That's more of an innate personality thing than a background thing.
I can give you my reasons for wanting to work at a regional airline. First is the simple fact that I love to fly, yeah it's a lot of work sometimes, but I still love it. The other reason is purely economic. While many furloughees have gotten good paying jobs in other industries, many of us haven't been able to secure any of those jobs and are sitting around collecting unemployment. While I don't consider my lifestyle(house, car, etc)particularly extravagent, it certainly wasn't designed around unemployment income, so while I have savings I can see that unless I get a better source of income things will get tighter down the line. I'm not ex-military, so I don't have the option of going back into the service, and my degree is in aviation which doesn't exactly light up non-aviation employers eyes. Unemployment pays more than Burger King and similar jobs, so that's out as well. So I come back to what I do best, and what most people are willing to pay me for-flying airplanes. As far as major airline furloughees not doing a good job at a regional, because they have a number at major to go back to one day, I think that's unlikely. Those who don't want the job probably won't apply for it in the first place. I'm sure that there would be slackers, but every airline has those anyway-you can't weed them all out. That's more of an innate personality thing than a background thing.
Hi again friends,
This is just a small reply to all that have kept this discussion going. Yes! Colgan does now require a two year commitment. I have a friend that works there and he told me that some of their existing Colgan pilots have jumped ship to other carriers, and that the company is pursuing legal action against them. Just a word to the wise.
To respond to the resentment issue, there probaly is alot of animosity towards these people. It boils down to fairness, but hey, business is not fair, and there is nothing we can do about it. The guy's that are already flying for the regionals are not going to care one way or another, and I wouldn't either. This is a time where the exec's are making up the rules as they go along. Whether it is a conflict of interest or not, doesn't matter. Management looks at all of this as a short term solution to thier needs. They are going to do what they think is the most cost efficient, and most practical, for the given time at hand.
I guess ultimately, giving up that number would very much depend on the company you worked for. If you do the math, then you know that there are only so many available regional positions. I suspect then, your'e going to have to be a rated astronaut before anyone will hire you! Just kidding! but you know what I'm talking about.
Your friend,
Av8ter
P.S. I harbor no resentment towards our furloughed brothers, you just have to do, what is best for you!. Good luck!
This is just a small reply to all that have kept this discussion going. Yes! Colgan does now require a two year commitment. I have a friend that works there and he told me that some of their existing Colgan pilots have jumped ship to other carriers, and that the company is pursuing legal action against them. Just a word to the wise.
To respond to the resentment issue, there probaly is alot of animosity towards these people. It boils down to fairness, but hey, business is not fair, and there is nothing we can do about it. The guy's that are already flying for the regionals are not going to care one way or another, and I wouldn't either. This is a time where the exec's are making up the rules as they go along. Whether it is a conflict of interest or not, doesn't matter. Management looks at all of this as a short term solution to thier needs. They are going to do what they think is the most cost efficient, and most practical, for the given time at hand.
I guess ultimately, giving up that number would very much depend on the company you worked for. If you do the math, then you know that there are only so many available regional positions. I suspect then, your'e going to have to be a rated astronaut before anyone will hire you! Just kidding! but you know what I'm talking about.
Your friend,
Av8ter
P.S. I harbor no resentment towards our furloughed brothers, you just have to do, what is best for you!. Good luck!
racerX
Speed's older brother!
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
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- 57
"Can you explain to me why furloughed major pilots would be willing to fly at a regional for a year or more at $18-30/hour when it serves no real career-advancement purpose? "
Ramius said it right. If you love to fly, then you will do it anywhere. Raise your hand if you would rather flip burgers than fly for a regional. No...on second thought, just quit and make room for someone else.
Ramius said it right. If you love to fly, then you will do it anywhere. Raise your hand if you would rather flip burgers than fly for a regional. No...on second thought, just quit and make room for someone else.
A reply to Ramius,
Yes! he had it right when he said "he just loves to fly" me too! for the last five years I have been doing other type work, and made money. I just wasn't happy doing anything, other than wanting to get back to flying airplanes.
It's in our blood, and very few outsiders can relate or understand our need. That's why we try so hard and make so many sacrifices. I will keep trying to get hired, and then will be satisfied with my life.
Av8ter.
Yes! he had it right when he said "he just loves to fly" me too! for the last five years I have been doing other type work, and made money. I just wasn't happy doing anything, other than wanting to get back to flying airplanes.
It's in our blood, and very few outsiders can relate or understand our need. That's why we try so hard and make so many sacrifices. I will keep trying to get hired, and then will be satisfied with my life.
Av8ter.
Clownpilot
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- 166
Lawyer?
Wait a minute.
How did a lawyer get on this board?
I thought we killed off all the lawyers that are trying to be pilots as well.
Guess not.
You know what?
You can stay.
I read this entire bitch session made up of some of the most illiterate posts I have ever read and realized that this profession has some tools that ain't the sharpest ones in the shed.
Maybe it's better that they fight amongst themselves rather than having jobs and subjecting themselves to the general public. On the other hand, I've flown with some Captains that couldn't spell their own names and they were ok. Hmmmmmmm.
Ah forget it, let's just kill the lawyer.
Wait a minute.
How did a lawyer get on this board?
I thought we killed off all the lawyers that are trying to be pilots as well.
Guess not.
You know what?
You can stay.
I read this entire bitch session made up of some of the most illiterate posts I have ever read and realized that this profession has some tools that ain't the sharpest ones in the shed.
Maybe it's better that they fight amongst themselves rather than having jobs and subjecting themselves to the general public. On the other hand, I've flown with some Captains that couldn't spell their own names and they were ok. Hmmmmmmm.
Ah forget it, let's just kill the lawyer.
macdaddy said:
ALPA v. ALPA
This is what happens when the same blasted union "represents" all parties involved. It's like having the same lawyer argue both sides of the case. Who's going to win? The one with the money. (Or in this have paid the most dues over time, since most regionals have a much larger market value than USAir right now anyway).
It seems that most USAir guys understand they are in a pickle and would be happy to fly again and hold their seniority number and call back rights. MEC is deciding that they can bully the express carriers into putting the USAir pilots in as CPT's, above current pilot's on the seniority list, etc. I think the USAir guy's should ask their representatives to chill out and get them some flying jobs with a little class and consideration for those of us choosing to work for airlines that are still making some money.
New hire status and you can keep your seniority number at USAir. What's wrong with that?
Oh yeah, we need a union that represents the interest of regionals, NOT majors while we work for a regional, but that's another story.
gns2005
This is what happens when the same blasted union "represents" all parties involved. It's like having the same lawyer argue both sides of the case. Who's going to win? The one with the money. (Or in this have paid the most dues over time, since most regionals have a much larger market value than USAir right now anyway).
It seems that most USAir guys understand they are in a pickle and would be happy to fly again and hold their seniority number and call back rights. MEC is deciding that they can bully the express carriers into putting the USAir pilots in as CPT's, above current pilot's on the seniority list, etc. I think the USAir guy's should ask their representatives to chill out and get them some flying jobs with a little class and consideration for those of us choosing to work for airlines that are still making some money.
New hire status and you can keep your seniority number at USAir. What's wrong with that?
Oh yeah, we need a union that represents the interest of regionals, NOT majors while we work for a regional, but that's another story.
gns2005
gns2005 is right on the money. It IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST for ALPA to try to represent WO regional pilots and "major airline" pilots. Duane Woerth doesn't seem to get it. Regionals are not a "B" scale; they are a C- scale. Less pay than a B scale, no retirement and 60% health insurance coverage. It is a joke. That is exactly why all the major airline bigwigs are sucking up every CRJ and ERJ they can get their greasy hands on. ALPA needs to pull their head out from where the sun does not shine and start getting pay and benefits commensurate with the majors. Not the same pay; the planes are smaller. They need to have the same effective cost per seat mile. Take away the slave labor profit. Once that happens the fight and animosity is over between regional and major pilots.
Clownpilot: I'm furloughed from a regional right now and I will be a major airline pilot eventually, whenever the hiring starts up again. I'm a good pilot and I know many people in many of the right places. The only difference between you and me is that God gave me a brain and you got the 20/20 vision. Without the 20/20 I could not get into the AIR FORCE after college. You know, I can even fly formation without three mile separation. Don't mess with lawyers. Guys like you lose every time.
Clownpilot: I'm furloughed from a regional right now and I will be a major airline pilot eventually, whenever the hiring starts up again. I'm a good pilot and I know many people in many of the right places. The only difference between you and me is that God gave me a brain and you got the 20/20 vision. Without the 20/20 I could not get into the AIR FORCE after college. You know, I can even fly formation without three mile separation. Don't mess with lawyers. Guys like you lose every time.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't the ALPA by-laws prohibit a pilot from having two seniority #'s at two ALPA carriers. I personally don't mind if furloughees come to Comair, but give up your seniority number. Why should you have your cake and eat it too. If I was furloughed from Comair would Delta give me a job until I went back to Comair? (this is just an example and yes i do have the minimums for Delta). For the regional pilots, if your company hires all these furloughees it is great for a while. You will not be at the bottom of your seniority list at your company anymore. However, what happens when they are recalled? YOU GO BACK TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. So ask yourselves where you benefit.
meanstreak
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- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
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Yes, it will be another sad day in aviation if companies like Trans States, Mesa and Chataquah let US Airways Mailine pilots on their property just so they can fly more regional jets. Hopefully your companies let the pilots vote, and not make management make the decision for you. I can't imagine being at the top of the seniority list at one of these copmanies and know I will be bumped down so a Mainline pilot can come in and take my Capatain seat and knock my seniority number in the toilet. Those guys had plenty of opportunity to accept a flow through agreement with the wholly owneds many times before, but they cotinuiously turned them down. Why, who really knows. Was it managments fault or was it the pilots fault, both sides will tell you it wasn't there fault.
Hi guy's,
I agree with the moderater, let's stop all this nonsense about grammatical errors, spelling, proper diction. We're all smart enough to have passed those writtens, and check rides, and to made it this far. What's really important is to try to help each other through this tough time of trying to find a job. I started this thread with the hopes of creating a dialog to understand how this business really works. It is like a huge chess game, and we're all pawns.
Your friend,
Av8ter.
P.S. Macdaddy, are you going back into law? Just curious why you are choosing regional flying over the legal game.
I agree with the moderater, let's stop all this nonsense about grammatical errors, spelling, proper diction. We're all smart enough to have passed those writtens, and check rides, and to made it this far. What's really important is to try to help each other through this tough time of trying to find a job. I started this thread with the hopes of creating a dialog to understand how this business really works. It is like a huge chess game, and we're all pawns.
Your friend,
Av8ter.
P.S. Macdaddy, are you going back into law? Just curious why you are choosing regional flying over the legal game.
atpcliff
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 4,260
Hi!
In the USAir deal, the USAir pilots will come in at the bottom of the seniority list. They will be able to hold captain, temporarily, as they have more hours than those on the bottom of the list, but as the "old" TSA/Chautauqua pilots, etc., build up hours, they will go capt and the USAir guys will be on reserve a long time.
Their benefit will be they'll be on the TSA/Mesa, etc. pay scale at the rate of their years of service at USAir.
This is a very interesting proposal, and we'll see what happens. I hope it benefits all of the companies involved, over time.
PS-USAir is offering a 50% flow through to USAir if/when they hire again. Some people have criticized this, but it's better than no other added benefits to the regional pilot groups.
Cliff
GB,WI
In the USAir deal, the USAir pilots will come in at the bottom of the seniority list. They will be able to hold captain, temporarily, as they have more hours than those on the bottom of the list, but as the "old" TSA/Chautauqua pilots, etc., build up hours, they will go capt and the USAir guys will be on reserve a long time.
Their benefit will be they'll be on the TSA/Mesa, etc. pay scale at the rate of their years of service at USAir.
This is a very interesting proposal, and we'll see what happens. I hope it benefits all of the companies involved, over time.
PS-USAir is offering a 50% flow through to USAir if/when they hire again. Some people have criticized this, but it's better than no other added benefits to the regional pilot groups.
Cliff
GB,WI
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