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Full Circle........

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Well-known member
Nov 26, 2001
I was originally going to post this as a reply on another thread, but felt maybe it should have its own. This was intended to be a reply to FR8mastr's statement concerning PSA and the J4J issue.

<<PSA the new MESA They will get theirs, sombody else even more spineless will come along and undercut them!!>>

I hope you don't get furloughed, FR8mastr. I am currently furloughed from UAL and just read that ACA will be taking quite a few more RJ's for delivery in the next year.......while UAL still has 844 pilots out on the street. They are using these aircraft to fly many routes that were flown by UAL 737's. So much for our scope clause......And did I mention UAL management is seeking concessions from the pilot group??? Not gonna make too many people happy doing this kind of stuff with our pilots out on the street. Many of us were also furloughed illegally, as our contract states that "any pilot who has completed their probationary year will not be furloughed."

For the longest time it has just been the major airline pilots complaining about their jobs being outsourced. It looks as though now it has come full circle.

I feel as you probably do, that my job is being outsourced to the lowest bidder. I flew for a regional for 5 and 1/2 years and saw my company get RJ's. I knew deep down it wasn't good for the profession, creating more lower paying regional jobs and less higher paying major jobs. Why did we get the flying??? Lower labor costs, pure and simple. Our Avro RJ85 crews were getting paid LESS than half of what a Northwest DC-9 crew would get flying a similiarly sized aircraft. I believe the Avro held 85 pax. However, we flew 69 pax in that aircraft (due to NW scope clause, we took out seats) while a Northwest baby DC-9 held about what we did. We did the EXACT same job for peanuts......

Now this tactic is being used on regional airlines. Management pits you guys against each other and gives the flying to the lowest bidder.

I am amazed to see regional pilots stating that management is giving away "their" flying. Heck, I thought it was our flying!!! We have been saying that for a while now as major airline pilots. It makes me wonder where it will end......Sounds like non-union Freedom Air is another company that will be getting in the mix soon. How long will it take for their pilots to say the same thing we are saying???? A few years maybe, until some other carrier will offer to do "their" flying for less. You are correct in what you say, what comes around really goes around.

I think ALPA really dropped the ball on this issue a long time ago. I feel that any flying done under a brand name should only be done by that company's "represented" pilots. One union for one brand name. UAL ALPA should represent all pilot's doing flying for UAL, period, including any regional UAL Express company contracted with us to do the flying. This would avoid much of the whipsawing that takes place between pilot groups. This would also let UAL ALPA determine what rates all of our flying will be done at, including at the regional level.

I'm sure this is a pretty complicated issue, and if we took the time to really think it through we could get a good plan going. We need to do something to bridge the gap of wages between majors and regionals. This in turn would stop the flow of outsourced jobs to "cheap" labor. Good luck, FR8mastr.
Ok,so you have a plan for collecting a good paycheck,protecting jobs,etc.-what's your plan for returning the company to profitability ? Your plan to compete with the Southwests and Airtrans and JetBlues ?
ACA had previously ordered 32 additional 328Jets and that order has been cancelled in favor of ordering 25 CRJs. So we are actually getting 7 less aircraft than we had scheduled prior to 9/11. Not to mention all of them are turboprop replacements which is allowed on a one for one basis in UAL's scope clause. Here's the entire press release.

Dulles, VA, (June 4, 2002) - Atlantic Coast Airlines (ACA) (NASDAQ/NM: ACAI) today announced it has agreed with Bombardier Aerospace and United Airlines to add 25 additional Canadair Regional Jet aircraft (CRJ200s) to the airline’s United Express fleet—with deliveries starting in April 2003 and ending in April 2004. This will bring the total number of regional jets planned for ACA’s United Express fleet to 121.

ACA announced that the new CRJs will be used in place of 32 previously-ordered Fairchild Dornier 328JETs and that ACA will discontinue its plan to operate the 328JET in the United Express program. ACA had taken delivery of two 328JETs for United Express that will be transitioned to the ACA Private Shuttle program before year-end. The total number of regional jets needed for the United Express program operated by ACA has been revised from 128 aircraft to 121, reflecting the larger capacity of the 50-seat CRJ. The company anticipates that its order with Fairchild will be formally terminated following the opening of Fairchild’s insolvency proceedings under German law.

In addition to the 62 CRJs now operated by ACA for United Express and the 25 ordered as part of today’s announcement, ACA also has 34 previously-ordered CRJs that are scheduled to be delivered by year-end 2003. Following the completion of the retirement of its remaining Jetstream-41 turboprops—which will be phased out under a revised schedule to coincide with the delivery of the new CRJ aircraft—this will create an all-CRJ United Express/ACA fleet by April 2004.

ACA’s Delta Connection program, and its operation of a fleet of 30 328JETs is not affected by this announcement.

Senior executives of the company will conduct a live webcast at 8:30 a.m. Eastern time on Wednesday, June 5, 2002 to discuss this announcement and to provide an update of the company’s Outlook in light of these and other recent developments. The live webcast can be heard directly through the ACA website at www.atlanticcoast.com (go to the “For Investors” section). Replays of the webcast will be available for the remainder of the business day.

ACA Announces 25 Additional CRJ Aircraft For United Express Fleet

Statements in this press release and by company executives regarding projections and expectations of future operations, earnings, revenues and costs represent forward-looking information. A number of risks and uncertainties exist which could cause actual results to differ materially from these projected results. Such factors include, among others: the costs and other effects of enhanced security measures and other possible government orders; changes in and satisfaction of regulatory requirements including requirements relating to fleet expansion; changes in levels of service agreed to by the company with its code share partners due to market conditions; the ability of these partners to manage their operations and cash flow; the ability and willingness of these partners to continue to deploy the company’s aircraft and to utilize and pay for scheduled service at agreed rates; the ability of these partners to force changes in rates; unexpected costs or delays in the implementation of new service; satisfactory resolution of union contracts becoming amendable during 2002 with the company’s aviation maintenance technicians and ground service equipment mechanics, and the company’s flight attendants; availability and cost of funds for financing new aircraft; final termination of the company’s order with Fairchild Dornier; the ability of Fairchild Dornier or its successors to provide adequate product support for previously delivered 328JET aircraft; delays in delivery of CRJ aircraft from Bombardier Inc.; ability to maintain the early retirement schedule for the company’s turboprop aircraft; general economic and industry conditions; additional acts of war; and, risks and uncertainties arising from the events of September 11 and from the slow economy which may impact the company, its code share partners, and aircraft manufacturers in ways that the company is not currently able to predict. These and other factors are more fully disclosed under the company’s "Management’s Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations" in ACAI’s Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2001. These statements are made as of June 4, 2002 and ACA undertakes no obligation to update any such forward-looking information, whether as a result of new information, future events, changed expectations or otherwise.

Atlantic Coast Airlines operates as United Express in the Eastern and Midwestern United States, and as Delta Connection in the Eastern U.S. and Canada. The company currently has a fleet of 126 aircraft—including 95 regional jets—and offers over 800 daily departures, serving 67 destinations in the U.S. and Canada.

ACA employs approximately 4,300 aviation professionals. The common stock of parent company Atlantic Coast Airlines Holdings, Inc. is traded on the Nasdaq National Market under the symbol ACAI. For more information about ACA, visit our website at www.atlanticcoast.com.
Head in the Sand

If your airline does not operate those airplanes, some one else will. There will always be pilots that think making 50K a year is a good job, especially when they are driving a bread truck for 30K a year.
Actually it's a potato chip truck....

Definitely not what I want to do for now, but there aren't a whole lot of options out there presently. Gotta do what I've gotta do to support the family......and I certainly won't give up my UAL seniority # to go work somewhere else. Worked too hard to get to UAL. I'll get back soon enough, hopefully sooner than later. But I know that those RJ's going to ACA do not help my cause, even if it was already in the works. What I'm worried about is all of my buddies at the regionals who won't even have a shot at a major due to all of the outsourcing taking place. It will be a whole lot tougher to get on with a major in the future, that's for sure.

I think the first thing that UAL could do to compete would be an entire changing of their management team. Get some people in there who are leaders instead of followers. I believe they are working on this.......I could go on and on about how much damage UAL management has done to the company with their crazy schemes over the last few years, but that would take an entire book....... Sept 11th and the economy has truly hurt the company, no doubt. But equally damaging has been how many MILLIONS of dollars our management team has lost on their own.

What I would like to see would be ONE union MEC (UAL ALPA) represent all of the flying done in aircraft painted in United colors. This way we could work on the large gap in wages the regional pilots endure. If this was addressed, maybe a lot of this outsourcing B.S. would stop and overall wages would rise in the industry.
I'm not really a professional pilot (yet), I carry my bosses around in a rental periodically, hoping one day we'll move up to a King Air and eventually a Citation. But I started reading aviation forums two years ago when I began flying again after a long layoff, and I've never been able to get my brain around some of these issues. Maybe someone could help me here ... I'm just playing Devil's advocate ... not providing flamebait. I'm genuinely curious ...

Basic economics dictate that airline managers will try farming out routes to the lowest bidder whenever possible (i.e. when an RJ will cover a route ... why put a 737 or MD80 on it?). So mainline pilots began negotiating scope into contracts, some (USAir) placed so many restrictions on regional/contract flying that the company is now in real danger of going tits-up. USAir couldn't compete. So, do most mainline guys favor scope at all costs? And if so, isn't it likely your airline will wind up like USAir (unable to compete)? Are you guys generally willing to risk that? Is there another solution?

I can't see any way around RJs eventually on most domestic routes, being fed by international widebodies (you guys). It seems it's just the market at work, basic capitalism. I always wanted to be an international wide-body captain, flogging a 747 across the Atlantic. It seems that these positions are going to be very scarce in the future. How can ALPA force mainline management to fly 75/76s domestically when RJs will soon be going coast-to-coast? I guess I just can't get a handle on the arguments against RJs-only on most domestic routes.

Again, I wish it was different ... but it seems mainline positions are gonna shrink drastically while RJs/SJs rule domestic. How can you guys do anything about this in the face of economic pressure via competition from low-cost carriers (Mesa)?



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