Fuel reserve question

[a&p cfiguy]

Okay, everyone knows the rule of 45 minutes reserve after reaching destination and alternate, blah blah. But are you allowed to tap into those reserves? Situation, 135 rules. Destination airport is fogged in. You picked an alternate 100 miles away. Your destination airport was fogged over when you leave, but was forcast to be within IFR landing visiblity minimums at your ETA, so you are legal to take off and head for it. You get there and visibility is below minimums and you request to hold to see if it'll get better. The sun's coming out and weather should lift anytime now. But while you're holding you've got some decisions to make. Fuel is getting low. You reach a point where you will not have enough to make your alternate 100 miles away +45 minutes reserve, but you think no problem, there's other airports that are clearing up within 30 miles, so that becomes your "out" (although not your filed alternate). You're still holding, fuel is getting lower. You now reach a point where you are confindent you can make your "out", but won't have 45 minutes reserve left over. Maybe say 30. Still legal? What if you absolutely know the trend is the fog is lifting, can you decide to still hold and start to tap into a 45 minute reserve just in the holding pattern? Again, not so much a safety concern, just a legal one. You know the weather is going to lift as is already has in most of the surrounding areas, you're airport is just one of the last ones. Can you tap into your fuel reserves? I know in an emergency the PIC can do anything necessary, but this is not an emergency (yet). But I also know the PIC has the obligation of making sure the situation does not become an emergency. What do you y'all think? Let's say the airplane finally did make it in, and when he taxied up to the ramp, some friendly FAA inspectors came to ramp check and found that you only had 30 minutes fuel remaining? Can they take legal action? What if you had 45 minutes left (but not enough to make it to an alternate +45 mins)?

 

[MauleSkinner]

The reg actually says "in IFR conditions", not "on an IFR flighth plan"...so as long as you don't punch a cloud, you're LEGAL down to 30 minutes...

On the other hand, fog that doesn't follow the forecast isn't worth waiting out if you're at minimum fuel...Other adverse conditions I might wait out, but fog that exceeds the forecast tends to hang around a LONG time.

Fly safe!

David

 

[homerjdispatch]

Not sure 135 but in part 121 ops the 45 minutes is for "planning". You can legally burn into it, as long as, before you departed, you did not "plan" to burn into it.

In other words, its there if you need it. Burn it if you need it.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Not sure 135 but in part 121 ops the 45 minutes is for "planning". You can legally burn into it, as long as, before you departed, you did not "plan" to burn into it.

Here's the 135 version...it's an "inflight" reg, not a "planning" reg.

135.223 IFR: Alternate airport requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in IFR conditions unless it carries enough fuel (considering weather reports or forecasts or any combination of them) to -

 

[Lead Sled]

What do you guys really do?

That's all fine and good and it takes care of the "legalities", but what kind of reserves do you guys actually use?

I'm a coward and subscribe to the theory that the only time you can have too much fuel is if you're on fire and it's not a contest to see who can land with the least amount of fuel. I usually plan on landing with at least an hour's worth of fuel or even a little more - that's in VFR conditions and at familiar airports.

'Sled

 

[mar]

Yeah.

This thread got me to thinking about the one time I landed with less than 45 mins of fuel on board.

It was a severe clear day, I had a max load with no alternate filed, but I was inbound to an airport with multiple runways and lots of available alternates if I needed them.

If I've only got one runway and no other airports nearby I'm planning to land with as much fuel as I can get away with.

But every flight is different.
Fly smart.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That's all fine and good and it takes care of the "legalities", but what kind of reserves do you guys actually use?

I'm a coward and subscribe to the theory that the only time you can have too much fuel is if you're on fire and it's not a contest to see who can land with the least amount of fuel. I usually plan on landing with at least an hour's worth of fuel or even a little more - that's in VFR conditions and at familiar airports.

'Sled

I'm an "hour in the tanks, minimum" kind of guy...Even if you ARE on fire, in the wintertime in my part of the country having extra fuel isn't all bad, either

Fly safe!

David

 

[JimG]

That's all fine and good and it takes care of the "legalities", but what kind of reserves do you guys actually use?

I'm a coward and subscribe to the theory that the only time you can have too much fuel is if you're on fire and it's not a contest to see who can land with the least amount of fuel. I usually plan on landing with at least an hour's worth of fuel or even a little more - that's in VFR conditions and at familiar airports.

'Sled

Me too. I'm that one hour minimum left on landing, and won't flight plan any less than that kind of guy....

On VFR flights.

I subscribe to the old joke about the 3 most useLESS things to a pilot

Runway left behind you
Sky above you
Fuel left back in the truck

I've landed with less than 30 min in the tanks... once.....18 years ago.

On long cross countries, I typically run the aux tanks dry (with my hand on the levers)...to the point of fuel flow guages flickering, just to make sure I don't leave anything in the tanks.

 

[Cardinal]

I asked pretty much the same question early this year, and the discussion went to 3 pages without a solid consensus, but it tended toward the conclusions that your legal reserve is for planning, period. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=49781 Lead Sled, JAFI, fly4free, and others brought in some good references and all made cogent points.

My question stemmed from a very similar situation to your hypothetical, a rapidly improving situation at my destination airport below me, yet dispatch telling me to start a long trek towards a diversionary airport. Even told dispatch to jump in a lake, I think it was the right decision.

 

[Almerick07]

I try to make fuel concerns non existent, If im going anywhere of significant distance in any type of conditions I get it topped off...youre going to burn it sooner or later. even 45 minutes reserve is questionable, especially flying old equipment and not knowing how accurate those figures are in the POH anymore.

 

[pilotyip]

Your filed alternate is used for planning purposes only, once you divert from your desintation every airport with weather above minimums is legal airport.

 

[mar]

Here we go.

Your filed alternate is used for planning purposes only, once you divert from your desintation every airport with weather above minimums is legal airport.

Ok, my friend. You put it on the table. Let's broaden this discussion a little now that the original question has been addressed (never one to be guilty of thread drift).

I was taught (at least under 121) that the dispatch release is a legal document and the only two airports you're released to fly to are the destination and the alternate.

If you require a change in the destination *or* the alternate then you must have a "re-release" from dispatch.

What does everyone say to that? Extra points for chapter and verse.

 

[FN FAL]

Okay, everyone knows the rule of 45 minutes reserve after reaching destination and alternate, blah blah. But are you allowed to tap into those reserves?... ...Can they take legal action? What if you had 45 minutes left (but not enough to make it to an alternate +45 mins)?

Just keep circling the destination airport until you have to declare an emergency, then shoot the ILS below mins as a deviate captain. After you land, fill out the handy Nassau form, then go get a cup of coffee or take nap on the FBO couch.

But seriously...why would you hold so long at the destination. I think you answered your own question.

 

[Lead Sled]

I try to make fuel concerns non existent, If im going anywhere of significant distance in any type of conditions I get it topped off...youre going to burn it sooner or later. even 45 minutes reserve is questionable, especially flying old equipment and not knowing how accurate those figures are in the POH anymore.

"Topping Off" may be an option on some airplanes, but not on others. Most jets and many turboprops are routinely fueled for the particular trip. Many are incapable of "legal" flight with the tanks topped off and more than the crew and a certain minimum amount of payload on board. Nearly every flight requires juggling the amount of fuel that is desired to be carried on board with the number of passengers, cargo, etc. that you want to carry, against the maximum weight that will permit you to achieve the required performance for that particular runway on that particular day. On top of that, you often have to look "down range" for a landing or two to make sure that you're not going to exceed any max landing weight limitations or approach climb restrictions. The primary way you handle these issues is by restricting your fuel load.

'Sled

 

[Almerick07]

I'm well aware of fuel concerns on most larger aircraft, i was just giving my opinion in the aircraft i fly on a regular basis. I fly a KA200 and we almost never have the tanks completely full, but needless to say there is always enough to free us from our worries. once again a KA200 isnt a very large a/c and i understand your point completely.

 

[pilotyip]

mar you are correct except in an emergency for 121, he was asking a 135 question I believe

 

[imacdog]

Ok, my friend. You put it on the table. Let's broaden this discussion a little now that the original question has been addressed (never one to be guilty of thread drift).

I was taught (at least under 121) that the dispatch release is a legal document and the only two airports you're released to fly to are the destination and the alternate.

If you require a change in the destination *or* the alternate then you must have a "re-release" from dispatch.

What does everyone say to that? Extra points for chapter and verse.

At the 135 operator I flew for, our op specs gave the pilots the final operating authority on all flights. We could divert to any airport we wanted to providing it was legal, without having to contact the company first.

 

[mar]

See 'mar' RTFQ

mar you are correct except in an emergency for 121, he was asking a 135 question I believe

Oops.

Guess I forgot that little detail.

That's what I get for trying to "broaden" the discussion.

 

[Lead Sled]

Oops.

Guess I forgot that little detail.

That's what I get for trying to "broaden" the discussion.

I sure love flying part 91.

'Sled