Ft/dt regs

[Nevergreen]

So what is the latest with the FT/DT Regs for the Supps, and all the 121's?

Are the regs going into effect this summer? I thought Congress mandated an Aug 1 date.

 

[brokeflyer]

they are waiting for the check from the airlines to clear. Once it does the legislation will be "lost"

 

[atpcliff]

1 aug is the startdate for the new Flight/Duty/Rest rules, and all -121 will have the same rules.

The FAA said -135 changes to mirror -121 changes soon.

cliff
SYD

 

[pilotyip]

They are not going into effect this summer, they will not go into effect until the summer of 2013. They will issue the rules and companies will have 24 months in which to comply. Much like mandatory CRM training for all 121 airlines back in 1996, everyone was given until March 24, 1998 to have an FA apprroved program.

 

[atpcliff]

I thought the two more years was only for the ATP -121 requirement???

cliff
SYD

 

[dontpost2]

I thought the two more years was only for the ATP -121 requirement???

cliff
SYD

The FAA is only due to issue the rule by August 1 and were getting real close so we'll see if they kick the can down the road a little further.

As Pilotyip mentioned, there will be some period of time in which to comply. 2 years seems to be the consensus though I haven't seen it anywhere.

 

[bizicmo]

two year to comply or just get the law morphed into something cheaper down the line

 

[pilotyip]

Big change takes time

two year to comply or just get the law morphed into something cheaper down the line

The projected staffing requirements, even at this time unknown, will make instand complience nearly impossible. I am also sure the unions would to have a say in how this is carried out.

 

[mushroom]

1. The new rules will be issued.

2. The new rules will have a phase-in time.

3. The new rules will include some language to the effect of, "If an operator provides its own rest/duty time scheme acceptable to the FAA, that rest/duty time scheme may be used in lieu of this section."

4. Different companies will write large checks to the FAA to ensure their schemes are "acceptable to the FAA."

5. Rest/duty rules will change little from what you are seeing right now.

Just a guess, and like Yip says, my guess is just as valid as yours.

 

[brownie]

We have the most pathetic goverment that money can buy. They changed the age 60 over night without any studys but lets give the airlines 18-24 months to implement thier lame watered down changes. Make sure you don't get fatigued for atleast another 18-24 months, What a joke.uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:

 

[pilotyip]

We have the most pathetic goverment that money can buy. They changed the age 60 over night without any studys but lets give the airlines 18-24 months to implement thier lame watered down changes. Make sure you don't get fatigued for atleast another 18-24 months, What a joke.uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:

and your solution would be? Implement on 1 hour's notice, too bad if all the flights scheduled for the next 5 months can not be covered under the new rules, yet to be published. Besides the rules have nothing to do with being rested. Besides no one can go from a day time schedule to a night time schedule and not be fatigued.

 

[Nevergreen]

The airlines have known about the proposed rules for almost a year. They should have planned accordingly.

But let's all feel sorry for the poor manager's having to adjust to the new rules.

Right Yip? You can give us the management perspective!

 

[pilotyip]

The airlines have known about the proposed rules for almost a year. They should have planned accordingly.

But let's all feel sorry for the poor manager's having to adjust to the new rules.

Right Yip? You can give us the management perspective!

There is no final rule, there are big pieces of it, but there is nothing to work from as a master document. Everyone is going to have input to this, pilots, management, unions, and the POI. This is a major change, much easier than the age 65 rule where you basically had to do nothing.

 

[tubineotter]

ya the age 65 ruling only made me and many of my generation adjust my life accordingly and wait five more years to finally make sum money at this career. I hope no one is surprised when SS starts getting the cuts when we 40 somethings are in control of the purse strings. rant over back to the wine!

 

[brownie]

and your solution would be? Implement on 1 hour's notice, too bad if all the flights scheduled for the next 5 months can not be covered under the new rules, yet to be published. Besides the rules have nothing to do with being rested. Besides no one can go from a day time schedule to a night time schedule and not be fatigued.

I find it very strange that no one can go from day to night but can fly another 5 yrs over night. Its all matter of perspective and sometimes you work for a company that has to obey by the new rules but unfortunatley in my case our company dictates those rules and these are the cold facts of life. Don't forget when your ceo has to make an appointment with chief of FAA our ceo has luncheon with Obama and advises him on the economy. So i stand firm in regards to my statment and that is WE HAVE THE BEST GOVERMENT THAT MONEY CAN BUY. :erm:

 

[tubineotter]

its good being a goverment lackey huh. stooge

 

[HA25]

Pilotyip... I can't begin to tell you how irritating I find you... but onto the matter at hand.

I too have been told that here will be a phase in period... how long, I don't know... I've heard 3 months and I've heard 2 years. Additionally, Fear a scenario where we have a Republican house/senate and White House..... should that occur, it's game over for anything resembling a cost to the airlines "read unfunded mandate"..

 

[pilotyip]

Pilotyip... I can't begin to tell you how irritating I find you... but onto the matter at hand.

I too have been told that here will be a phase in period... how long, I don't know... I've heard 3 months and I've heard 2 years. Additionally, Fear a scenario where we have a Republican house/senate and White House..... should that occur, it's game over for anything resembling a cost to the airlines "read unfunded mandate"..

Sorry I irritate you, but I must confess I have of idea what you are talking about.

 

[b19]

121 supp int'l

How about the complete lack of any duty time limit on a 3 man crew under 121 supp int'l regs, just a 12 hour flight time limit.

Does anyone have some idea of what the regs may look like for the supplemental carriers ?

 

[Nevergreen]

Its supposed to be ONE set of rules to cover all 121. No more exception for Supplemental carriers.

However, I still fear the supps will get the rules changed to exempt themselves again.

 

[HA25]

How about the complete lack of any duty time limit on a 3 man crew under 121 supp int'l regs, just a 12 hour flight time limit.

Does anyone have some idea of what the regs may look like for the supplemental carriers ?

that should be criminalized....

 

[LarryinTN]

How about the complete lack of any duty time limit on a 3 man crew under 121 supp int'l regs, just a 12 hour flight time limit.

What do you mean, no duty time limit? You're limited to 6-days on then you need your 24-in-7 so that's a max of 144 hours before you're required to have a rest!

 

[Spoolingbyu]

A DC-9 crew doing a MMMY-YIP gets to adhere to 2 pilot rules, BUT go to a 727, add an engineer and suddenly now you have 3 international robots who can wait days for freight with no fatigue?

I can't believe the management can't take the high road and create something safer than the barely legal minimum.

Pilotyip, you complain about instant compliance, but we're not asking you to move mountains. (don't worry, thank goodness we have govt mandated GPWS). We're asking you (and all management) to start moving in the right direction of a safety culture that's been cultivated for the past few decades. Instead, we will have a ft/dt rule ignoring fatigue and circadian rhythms that would be a regression in safety.

If tonight at midnight we said put 20 TCAS boxes in all 20 airplanes in a fleet, we'd be unreasonable. You could start doing 1 install a month for the next 20 months. Obviously this is a dated example to make a point. You get the idea. Waiting until the compliance date and then panicking is hazardously lazy.

Would you and others in management take the high road and put GPWS in each aircraft you sent to Mexico if weren't already mandated? Nah, we don't need it, those Mexican controllers are always helpful and speak good English.

Did the company fold up back when previous improvements to safety were implemented? Or did you simply pass it on to the customer. Or did you reduce your margin? Oh, that's right, we forgot, the sky fell.

But using the 24-in-7 and the unlimited duty and 120 in 30, i.e. the bare-bones bargain-basement bottom end of the regulations as the last word in safety is simply ignorant and negligent.

So you force the crew/PIC to play the fatigue card as their only relief, and when they do, chew them out with a nice Monday-morning phone call. And when they don't play that card, conveniently you can blame the PIC for poor judgement, and careless/reckless will take care of it if something ever were to happen. Oh sure, look Mr. POI, we have a fatigue mitigation plan! But you'll be chucking that Captain under the bus quicker than he can answer his pager.

The Airline is safe! AHA! Thank you ITT Tech, this Associate's in basket-weaving management with a minor in muffler shop sure got my career started!

But why change? You've always made money doing it this way. It's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, because it feels SO GOOD when you stop.

Think about it this way, yip - if you actually make safety improvements with regard to aircraft utilization and crew schedules, you'll need more pilots and then-


you'll actually have that pilot shortage you've always dreamed of.

 

[pilotyip]

you'll actually have that pilot shortage you've always dreamed of.

It is on it way, trust me. BTW you have me confused with someone who could do anything about anything, except scheduling interviews and teaching ground school.

 

[HA25]

A DC-9 crew doing a MMMY-YIP gets to adhere to 2 pilot rules, BUT go to a 727, add an engineer and suddenly now you have 3 international robots who can wait days for freight with no fatigue?

Absolute proof that the government regulators are bought and paid for by lobbies... Makes no sense at all from a scientific standpoint.

Same applies to a 747-400 with proper rest facility and bunks vs a 747-200 with none.... the 3 pilot airplane can go for as long but they get a legal place to sleep when tired... the 2 pilot / 1 FE crew have to stay alert thru 3 legs, and 12 hours of flying over a 24 hour duty day ..