Frustrated

[bobbysamd]

Like I said, I'm not going to read anymore "opinions". It just makes me sick. Not that I don't appreciate any of them. Their great comments but I'm just screwing myself listening to them. My parents say for me to listen to them and not anybody on the net, you guys say opposite. What good is this doing me? Instead, its continuing to confuse me.

You asked. We answered. You solicited advice. We provided it. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear. Just trying to be straight with you.

Skiddriver wrote an excellent post for you (even if he did quote Kit Darby). I can tell that he spent a great deal of time typing it. Take another look at it. The facts and figures speak for themselves.

PS-By the way, I take exception to your comment that from now on you'll solicit advice only from "real life" pilots. My logbooks and ATP certificate tell me that I have been a "real life "pilot, who, as a flight instructor, taught a number of people your age and up how to fly and/or gave them their first airplane rides (I am not current and my CFI is long expired.). Falcon Capt., who I know, had dinner with a few weeks ago, and to whom I gave a stage check at Riddle, is most certainly a "real life" pilot. I can vouch for everything he writes. So, rest assured, the people who have answered your post (flamebaits excepted) are "real life" pilots.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

What about this? I finish high school. I am going to have to work for a year or a year and a half in order to save the money to go. I just wont have the money to go next year. I go to college and get a diploma. I get flight training at the same time. Once I got my diploma and I have all my ratings and endorsements, I work for somebody maybe a regional. Here in Canada, regionals don't require degrees, not even a diploma and I know that for a fact. They just want people to fly. Air Canada, our major airline, is actually hiring pilots now and we didn't have any furloughs after sept 11. They to do not require degrees but its just an extra credit to get you hired like knowing additional languages. Once I'm working for a regional or flying bush, I go back a little later, maybe a couple of years, to finish up and get a degree. How would transferring work there? Does this sound good? Am I going to loose years or anything else valuable doing it this way?

And does it matter what kind of degree I get? I'm sorta interested in forestry so I would get a forestry degree. Would that matter to an airline as long as I have a degree?

 

[banned username 2]

The type of degree you get doesn't really matter, as long as it is a Bachelor (4 year) degree...

As far as your plan... well flying for a living does NOT allow for any kind of "preset" schedule, so taking classes while flying for a living would be very difficult unless you were maybe a CFI and took night school (which will drag your degree out several more years)

And don't think once you are done with your ratings you are going to just "walk" into a job at a regional... When you are done with your certificates and ratings you will have about 300 hours... most of the regionals now require 1,500+ hours to be competitive... So you will have at LEAST 1,200 hour to gain before you can go to a regional...

My question is, if you have to take a year or more off after High School to make money to go to college, where in the heck are you going to get $30,000+ to do your flight training??? At least in college you can get student loans... You can't get loans for flight training through the same avenues... if at all... (unless it is tied to your degree)

You seem to have the money available for flying but not for college??? How so....

 

[uwochris]

Before people start to reply again, I want to clear something up:

Adam, I didn't realize you are Canadian. I am too- I train at The University of Western Ontario in London. In Canada, airlines do NOT require degrees- not even Air Canada. They are given preference however. What the majors here do require, is at least an aviation diploma. This is like an Associates Degree (2-3 years) focusing on flying (like the Mesa program). These programs have been around here in Canada a long time, hence there fame. However, I do believe degrees are given preference. Also, when Canadian Airlines was still around, they REQUIRED a 4 year degree. Many pilots at Air Canada either have a degree or an aviation diploma. Without any form of education, your chances are slim.

Adam, please check out Seneca College (Toronto), Sault College (Sault St. Marie) or Confederation College (North Bay). These colleges offer FREE flight training (yes I said FREE), sponsored by the government. They are the only colleges in Ontario that do so. All you pay for is regular college tuition and books. The fligt hours and flight instruction is subsidized- ie) you don't pay. This is a very cost effective way to do your training, and afterwards, you can finish your degree from a University if you want. These colleges are well recognized for their training too.

So Adam, if you still want to fly and do the degree (but need money) I would apply to one of the 3 colleges I mentionned. Those colleges offer the cheapest flight training anywhere in North America and have a good reputation.

If you want to be more competitive, I would go for the degree after the diploma. Also, note these diplomas are either engineering or business related. There really is no flexibility in what classes you get to take.

And the fact that there were no furloughs here in Canada post 911.... well, do you remember the airline Canada 3000? They are no more- all pilots laid off. Word has it that Air Canada Jazz also will be laying off some pilots. However, it was announced that Westjet and Air Canada will be hiring in the next few months. Obviously, you can imagine how competitive this will be. A degree, a 2nd/3rd language, etc will DEFINETLY make the difference!

 

[pipers]

Adam dude, you need to do it. Of course there are some major airline pilots who never completed a college degree, but aviation is becoming an increasingly competitive business and every bit helps. My guess is that in the future non-bachelor degree pilots will be few a far between.

I haven't recieved "dime one" from my parents (nor have alot of people on this board), but I was able to juggle work, college, and aviation. It a tough and expensive road, but it builds alot of charactor and it's well worth the effort. Good luck and don't cut yourself short. We've been there.

 

[bobbysamd]

Free flight training with degree

[P]lease check out Seneca College (Toronto), Sault College (Sault St. Marie) or Confederation College (North Bay). These colleges offer FREE flight training (yes I said FREE), sponsored by the government. They are the only colleges in Ontario that do so. All you pay for is regular college tuition and books . . . .

Now, that's what I call a deal!!

Howcum we don't have anything like that in the lower 48? What's the catch?

Seriously, Adam, run that past your parents. A situation like that would be hard to beat.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Free flight training? That almost seems too good to be true. I would like to know what is the catch. I thought you guys said to stay away from programs that pay for your flight training.

uwochris, check your private mail. I sent you some.

 

[hobbsmeter]

I'll chime in...

First of all Adam, RELAX! I get the impression that you're a high strung fellow, which can be a good thing, IF you channel it correctly, but that's a whole new topic.
Now to answer your question: For all intents and purposes, here in the US, YES you need a 4 year degree to get on with a major airline. You don't need to be confused, the answer really is as simple as that. Take it or leave it.
One of the previous posters gave excellent advice regarding short term goals. Focus on those...solo, private, commercial etc etc. your life will fall in place eventually, as long as you manage it effectively. Baby steps remember?
MANY people have done flight training concurrently with college, it can be done. Let us know about those programs offered up in Canada regarding "free flight training", sounds like an awesome deal.
Ok, I've blabbed enough, now remember:
It's not a question of how or why, but rather do or die.

 

[bigD]

I'm getting two 4 year degrees and working at the same time to both pay for school, and to keep flying while doing it. I work 30-40 hours a week and generally take 12 hours per semester. It's pretty tough, but not impossible. You gotta love to fly, though. I would never make it through if I didn't get to look forward to the hour or two I fly on the weeekends.

Bottom line - this industry is brutal, and to have any real chance of achieving your goals, you need to develop an attitude of doing whatever you have to do to get there. Sometimes I get down on myself because I've been in school for almost 6 years while my friends from high school are getting ready to finish law or medical school, but usually a drive to the airport and hanging out around pilots gets my mind back on track.

Good luck!

 

[bobbysamd]

Free COLLEGE flight training v. P-F-T

Free flight training? That almost seems too good to be true. I would like to know what is the catch. I thought you guys said to stay away from programs that pay for your flight training.

I don't think anyone has said to avoid programs that pay for your flight training. Obtaining your certificates and ratings (licenses) on someone else's nickel is the ideal situation. In effect, the military pays for the flight training of its pilots.

We're talking about long after you complete your training. You may be offered a job with a condition of employment being that you pay the cost of being trained for that job. That, you should reject.

I, too, want to know the catch of free flight training at the Canadian colleges Chris mentioned.

 

[Typhoon1244]

People still complaining about having to go to college to get an airline job? You mean this horse isn't dead yet?

Everything else aside, don't forget that medical certification can be a very fragile thing. You can be coasting along just fine and then, bam, something horrible happens and your medical goes out the window. No more flying. Having a college degree in something non-flying related makes for a great parachute if for some reason you can't fly later.

Life isn't fair. All of us would love to have gotten into the cockpit without doing any hard work, but we knuckled down and got our degrees and got the jobs because that's what we wanted. That's life. Hey, if you couldn't become an airline pilot without training in hula dancing, we'd all have been out there in grass skirts shaking our as_es.

 

[Fitzy]

If you don't finish school you will fly small airplanes, nail ugly women, live in a van down by the river and eat government cheese. I'm being sarcastic but the truth hurts, also love my Kelowna BC layovers, beautiful women and they only talk to pilots with degrees because they are the ones who can afford their drinks.Even you Canadians need education, crazy I know.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Adam,

I really don't care to weigh in on the college debate but I feel compelled to repeat a great point Typhoon1244 made. IF you go the college route seriously consider a degree in something that interests you in a field other than aviation. You will be a wise man to always have a "plan B" up your sleeve should you loose your medical or ... You fill in the blank. Read some of the posts on this board and you will quickly see that aviation is a tough mistress to be in love with. Make a "Plan B" and you will be able to ride out the storms of life. Whatever you do, I wish you luck.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[Fitzy]

That was beautiful and romantic ,especially from a mechanic.

Poetry 101

 

[uwochris]

In response to the free flight training issue...

There really is no catch. There are only 3 programs like that in all Canada I believe, and they are all located in Ontario. I may be wrong, but I believe you may have to be a resident of the province of Ontario to attend. Again, if you are reading this Adam, I may be wrong. You would have to contact the schools.

Also, those programs weed people out fairly quickly. For instance, at the Sault and Confed program you have to maintain a certain average in order to stay in the program. At the Toronto school, only the top 30 or so students academically get admitted into the flight training, which means many students (I believe 130-140 students are accepted in first year, and only 30 or so can get the flight training) lose a year if they don't meet the standards.

These issues are really not a big problem because if you work hard, you will likely make the cut.

These programs have been around pretty long. The flight training (the hours and the instruction) are subsidized, and the students only have to pay for college tuition and books, along with the medical and flight test rides. But the most expensive part is covered!

The reason I chose not to attend one of those colleges was because I wanted a degree, focused in business. Those programs do not offer a degree, but there's nothing stopping students from transferring to a University afterwards.

I wish more schools operated like this... but then again, I don't think most provincial or state governments would be keen about subsidizing such programs. If you ask me, I'm surprised they still subsidized!

 

[bobbysamd]

Free flight training . . . . . .

Thanks, Chris.

Interesting . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Capt. Gab]

On the subject of "free" flight training

Adam, if you speak French, there is also a program like that at the "Cégep de Chicoutimi" in the Québec province.

The particulars seem to be the same as Chris mentionned for the Ontario schools : 3 years post-secondary education but obviously not a 4-year university degree. However, available slots are few (40 students a year) and most candidates graduate at the end (an average of 32 students a year).

As I would expect is the case with the other schools in Ontario, graduates are a known quantity for many operators throughout the province, and a Chicoutimi diploma often opens doors to people with very little time. I would not discount this advantage, which I consider to be HUGE by the way. However, many new pilots fall in the trap of not getting that university degree afterwards, which is really a shame if you ask me. Plus, I agree wholeheartedly with bobbysamd : not doing your degree right after high school is not a practical solution. In my experience (from looking at most of my pilot buddies at the local airport), not doing it now pretty much means you won't do it. Obviously 4 years with 5 classes per semester is not easy, but how difficult or long do you think it will be in a couple of years down the road to attend 2 or 3 night classes per semester for 8 years while keeping a flying job (if possible at all)?

I know where you're at and I know how you feel, but try to let some of the advice on this board sink in. A lot has been said on this thread; read it back, see if it makes more sense the second time around. If you really have your sights set on Air Canada (or Westjet, Air Transat, or the others), remember that military pilots will always be given preferential consideration for hiring. If you're willing to discount that, you are obviously entitled to, but remember that you now fall in the second category of suppy, which is civilian-trained pilots. If you don't play tennis with the Chief pilot or your dad is not an Air Canada pilot, a 4-year degree and/or more then one language spoken will definately "squawk ident" you to HR personnel (sorry, couldn't resist saying that! ). In the end, everybody knows how to fly, but what will you have on your resume to rival the thousands of pilots that want the same job that you do?

Best of luck with your decision!