Frustrated : about some CFIs, TSA, dumb people

[FlyingToIST]

I have been a Part 61 operator for some time and I cannot believe some of the things I see in my last 6 months of experience:

- CFIs.. I am not an old fart but some of the CFIs I interviewed are plane dumb! No matter where they come from, they lack communication skills, inability to fly a single engine aircraft (A Piper Warrior) but if you ask them they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager.. One I interview was +/-300 feet in the pattern in a Warrior.. This guy had 190 hrs of Seminole time.. Another was a graduate of a school with G430s and didn't want to fly an aircraft with a KX170B. None of them heard about the rule of TSA security training that they had to complete by January of this year. I guess their "big shot" schools didn't care except the $$$.

- TSA : I have a permanent resident CFI candidate that needs to start training. AOPA's website doesnt list "flight instructor" for trainings that a candidate has to go for TSA security clearence. I called TSA 3 times and they couldn't give a straight answer. AOPA says "Well, we can't get you a clear cut answer, but why don't you apply for him any way"..

- TSA (2) : I have a PPL candidate with F-1 and since April 12th his case is "pending" .. How is that for the "feel good, create government jobs and invent more paper work" measures..

- Dumb people : Had some dumbos show up the other day. They wanted to buy an airplane and "commute" between PacNW and TN every week. Their budget was a whopping $150,000.. When they found out that they needed to spend 13 hrs in the air with that kind of money their response was "I can drive there in 2 days" .. Well, have you ever heard of this thing called airlines ?


Anyways.. Just wanted to get off my chest..

 

[mattpilot]

good stuff


FYI:

- TSA (2) : I have a PPL candidate with F-1 and since April 12th his case is "pending" .. How is that for the "feel good, create government jobs and invent more paper work" measures..

You can start training on this guy as soon as you send in his picture (& other shat like fingerprints) after he arrives at your place. You don't need to wait for varification. If something is wrong, they will call you to tell you to stop training.

 

[FN FAL]

Not flying related and I understand your frustration...garunteed you'll run into more frustrations while flying.

Yesterday, the wife and I were doing some shooting at a municipal shooting range. We did most of our work at the pistol section. Which is within 50 yards of and parallels the rifle section. For the most part, we had the range all to our selves.

I had a 22 caliber pistol with silencer that needed to get it's new aimpoint scope sighted in. Plus, I wanted to test a new barrel and racheting top cover that I installed in a 9mm submachine gun. After going through 500 or so rounds of 9mm, we took out the cleaning gear and hosed the guns down and proceeded over to the rifle section to test fire a Russian SKS that I bought last winter.

We set up a target at 25 yards...just to see if the rifle was close to being sighted in fresh out of the box. By then, some guys had appeared and were setting up rifles on the far right side of the rifle tables. No big deal...I go over and chat with them, to get things on the same page. They are cool, I'm cool...we're on the same page.

We do a little rifle shooting and some kids show up...4 boys and 5 girls...about 21 years old. Now things change...there seems to be a lack of responsibility going on. Lots of gigling, no range discipline and these jerks whip out a shotgun and start lobbing clay pidgeons by hand.

I have had enough, so I clear my SKS and run a brush and swab through the bore. Pack up and start to leave. As we back our car away from the rifle tables, my wife says that one of kids swung the shotgun in my direction after a clay pidgeon went up like a frisbee and curved towards my rifle table.

I'm like "WHAT!??" So I stop the car and I ask my wife this again and she tells me that the fat kid swung the shotgun 90 degrees from the shooting lanes and in my direction, following a clay pidgeon and she said they all laughed about it.

I didn't see it happen, but my wife saw it. So I'm thinking, what do I do about this epochal stupidity?...confront some punks that have a shotgun, call the police, leave? We start to leave and I just can't let it go. I'm thinking that these jerkasses need something to think about...but I don't know what.

If I had a cell phone, I'd have probably called the police, but I ain't starting a scrap on a shooting range and I ain't about to force a situation with these punks because, it could all go south pretty quickly and "they" would have been the victims.

I think I know what I'm going to do in the future...I'll keep a couple of "spare" clay pidgeons in the gear box. If something like this happens in the future, I'm just going to have the wife toss a pidgeon in their direction an see how they like it when I swing the Remington 1100 12 gauge in their direction.

I know it's not flying related, but had one of their shotgun BB's hit me, I could be out of a medical and out of a flying job...plus, these punks are about the age of the punks you mentioned in your story.

 

[Immelman]

fn fal,

That is pretty nuts. I shoot at a private range/sportsman's park and one good thing is that you are required as a member to report any behavior like that. As a normal member all one can do is contact the management by phone and let them know who it was (everyone has to wear their range nametag), or if its an outright dangerous situation, call the cops.

Members who volounteer to be range safety officers may approach such behavior and ask the person to leave, but nothing more... the basic idea is that there is no confrontation; if they don't want to leave or change their behavior it is turned over to the police.

...end of thread hijack...

 

[Goose Egg]

...some of the CFIs I interviewed are plane dumb! No matter where they come from, they lack communication skills, inability to fly a single engine aircraft (A Piper Warrior) but if you ask them they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager.. One I interview was +/-300 feet in the pattern in a Warrior.. This guy had 190 hrs of Seminole time.. Another was a graduate of a school with G430s and didn't want to fly an aircraft with a KX170B. None of them heard about the rule of TSA security training that they had to complete by January of this year. I guess their "big shot" schools didn't care except the $$$.

That's the truth! I'm even a CFI and I see that type of stuff happening in my own ranks. I guess flying isn't truck driving after all.

They wanted to buy an airplane and "commute" between PacNW and TN every week. Their budget was a whopping $150,000.. When they found out that they needed to spend 13 hrs in the air with that kind of money their response was "I can drive there in 2 days" .. Well, have you ever heard of this thing called airlines?

Here's yer sign.


-Goose

 

[NuGuy]

CFIs.. I am not an old fart but some of the CFIs I interviewed are plane dumb! No matter where they come from, they lack communication skills, inability to fly a single engine aircraft (A Piper Warrior) but if you ask them they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager.. One I interview was +/-300 feet in the pattern in a Warrior.. This guy had 190 hrs of Seminole time.. Another was a graduate of a school with G430s and didn't want to fly an aircraft with a KX170B. None of them heard about the rule of TSA security training that they had to complete by January of this year. I guess their "big shot" schools didn't care except the $$$...

Heyas Flying,

AOPA's Instructor newsletter a few months ago had a article (front page) on this very thing, about a Chief CFI doing interviewing for his small school. He couldn't believe what he was seeing. Interesting reading...

Nu

 

[Goose Egg]

Heyas Flying,

AOPA's Instructor newsletter a few months ago had a article (front page) on this very thing, about a Chief CFI doing interviewing for his small school. He couldn't believe what he was seeing. Interesting reading...

Nu

As an aside, I definitely wasn't prepared to start teaching when I got my CFI. It was sort of a "baptism by fire" but eventually I got up to speed. But then again, I could do a lot better than +/- 300' in the pattern.

-Goose

 

[FN FAL]

fn fal,

That is pretty nuts...

...end of thread hijack...

Thanks for the info...I just don't want to see the range shut down, get arrested in an altercation or see anyone harmed by negligent actors. Here is where having a cell phone could have saved the day.

Also...no thread hijack. If you look carefully at his original post title, it says "Frustrated:....stupid people".

If need be, I can list a flying reference.

Flying Reference: Clay pidgeons have camber and when moving through the air, they generate lift.

 

[Cardinal]

As an aside, I definitely wasn't prepared to start teaching when I got my CFI. It was sort of a "baptism by fire" but eventually I got up to speed. But then again, I could do a lot better than +/- 300' in the pattern.

I was in the same boat. Yet the boneheaded types that AOPA instructor newsletter mentioned don't necessarily improve with time. People don't seem to grasp that giving poor flight instruction is the most statistically sure way to kill somebody down the road. Those that have substituted bravado for skills can be found in the newhire ranks at the regionals, and it's just as irritating.

A sure way to identify a mediocre aviator: If they ever utter the words "when I was in flight school." It's like they went to UPT or something, gimme a break.

 

[semperfido]

Yesterday, the wife and I were doing some shooting at a municipal shooting range.

public ranges seem to be a lot like public golf courses. you can get a lot of yawhoos.

as far as cfi goes- it is just a license to learn.-- unless you are an old fart

 

[check6]

I can guarantee any CFI will have a tough time starting out. Once they get cookin' though, look out. I was TERRIBLE when I started, but I'm getting better. I've finished off 3 people that came to me half way through their training. It's an accomplishment for not just my students, but myself. Even filling out the IACRA form takes some trial and error!! They may not have the experience, but the quality of training THEY received will show through. I went to a big name flight school and compared to where I teach now, the quality of the pilots at the big aviation school are trained in a very professional manner compared to the smaller FBO training. The habits I have learned are now being passed on.

 

[Goose Egg]

I can guarantee any CFI will have a tough time starting out.

That's the truth. Being able to pass the checkride and actually being able to teach are two separate things. It's a shame that the PTS requirements aren't a little more pertinant to real-world instructing.

-Goose

 

[FlyingToIST]

I never said that a CFI with wet ink on his logbook from his checkride should be in a level as a Master instructor. There are certain things that I look for on the other hand.. Using their judgement is one of them..

I think with all these "Accelerated" programs, and "let's get to 300 hrs" type opf training they are becoming monkeys that they know what to do in one type of aircraft.. My CFI interview was on a Cardinal which I never flew before.. I never said "I want G430s".. It was different that the C172s I flew, but I was able to teach a steep turn like it was a C172, or Pa28..because the concept is the same..

Anyway, I wanted to get off my chest as i said.. I found this young kid with great personality and he is holding two jobs.. My gut feeling tells me that he is going to be great instructor after 300 hrs of dual given..

 

[Metro752]

+/-300 in the pattern is horrendous

Where was the range safety officer? When I go shooting, you couldn't do stupid stuff like that or you'd have 2-3 crazy old coots breathing down your neck recommending you follow the rules or leave.

Can't believe you let them get away with pointing it at you. What happens when they show up again, and possibly drunk, and shoot somebody? Completely wreckless. Did they even have ear and eye protection?

 

[FlyChicaga]

The stupidity doesn't end as they surpasse the CFI stage. It just transfers into a new stage of flying!

 

[Ralgha]

I went to a big name flight school and compared to where I teach now, the quality of the pilots at the big aviation school are trained in a very professional manner compared to the smaller FBO training.

Someday you'll learn that the quality of "big name flight school" is no better, and usually worse, than that received from a good CFI under part 61.

 

[check6]

I agree that the quality of the CFI's may differ, but an organized, well layed out curriculum of a "big name flight school" ensures everything is covered.

An organized part 61 instructor will be better off than one that is not.

 

[JAFI]

When I was the Chief Pilot of a Part 61 Flight School I interviewed CFI's all the time due to the regionals hireing (then they were called "Commuters"). I took a not so new CFI on a short check out flight in a 172. He proceded to teach me how to roll the 172 correctly. (I never asked) I just looked at him during the first roll. I told him we did not do that at our school and he said "No, it is real easy just do it this way..." He did not get the job. Another CFI I interviewed told me he did not like to talk, he woud just show the student what to do. I asked another CFI to teach me about "what makes an airplane fly". He spent thirty minutes telling me about two air molucules named "Moe and Joe" and at the end of the half hour I had no idea what he was talking about.

But hang in there, I have met many good CFI's who provide good instruction and are good employees.

As to the rifle range storys, Let's see... Teenagers (Coed no less) at a rifle range with shotguns. I can see why you left the range.


JAFI

 

[FL000]

...some of the CFIs I interviewed are plane dumb!

That's a pun, right?

 

[Mtnjam]

ticket to learn

I agree with the Theory about the CFI is a ticket to learn. When I passed my CFI checkride my examiner said "let me explain something to you." He exlained how I was not a CFI, but just a pilot who held a CFI certificate. He said it was a ticket to learn. At the time I was like, "yeah whatever!" I had trouble finding a CFI job because this was back in Late 2001 and early 2002 I was looking for CFI work but finally somebody gave me the chance.
I learned so much in my first two hundred hrs. of Dual given, but the learning curve never stopped. If the guy has a "can do" willing and eager to learn attitude then hire them because they will work hard to be the best and they will get better.
Fact is that a 400 hr. pilot is still getting aclimated and comfortable in airplanes and to top that off unless you're military trained. a 400hr. Pilot has no business doing these "Daddy expense account" courses like Gulfstream and then coming to airlines and running Jet's off runways and into the ground!!!! Being a CFI is a great thing for everyone.

 

[say again]

- CFIs.. I am not an old fart but some of the CFIs I interviewed are plane dumb! No matter where they come from, they lack communication skills, inability to fly a single engine aircraft (A Piper Warrior) but if you ask them they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager.. One I interview was +/-300 feet in the pattern in a Warrior.. This guy had 190 hrs of Seminole time.. Another was a graduate of a school with G430s and didn't want to fly an aircraft with a KX170B. None of them heard about the rule of TSA security training that they had to complete by January of this year. I guess their "big shot" schools didn't care except the $$$.

It's great to see what money can buy, and it's certaintly not SKILL!!!!! Scary, but it's happening more now than ever.

 

[check6]

MTNJAM,

You said it. I'm learning a lot.

 

[CUEBOAT]

When I was the Chief Pilot of a Part 61 Flight School I interviewed CFI's all the time due to the regionals hireing (then they were called "Commuters"). I took a not so new CFI on a short check out flight in a 172. He proceded to teach me how to roll the 172 correctly. (I never asked) I just looked at him during the first roll. I told him we did not do that at our school and he said "No, it is real easy just do it this way..." He did not get the job. Another CFI I interviewed told me he did not like to talk, he woud just show the student what to do. I asked another CFI to teach me about "what makes an airplane fly". He spent thirty minutes telling me about two air molucules named "Moe and Joe" and at the end of the half hour I had no idea what he was talking about.

This is down right comical, moe & joe. I can't help but feel bad for the guy "instructing" how to roll a 172 on a CFI interview flight, what a jack*ass!!!

 

[JediNein]

Another was a graduate of a school with G430s and didn't want to fly an aircraft with a KX170B...

If the KX170B is in good condition and has a decent VOR head on it, I'll fly it. If it's a worn out single comm/nav POS that has 'features' to its operation, I wouldn't want to fly it either, but then, I spend a lot of time instructing in IMC in busy airspace. There is also a time where I throw a towel over the panel and have the student fly on the outside world, sound, and feel.

I agree with your comments, FlyingToIST. We've run a lot of CFI interviews and have had very _very_ few hires. It's not like we're asking them to do an inverted flat spin with a recovery on a heading, either. If the 'kid' is willing to learn, we can bring them up to a proficient skill level, even with glass cockpit stuff. But, and the reason for most of the rejections, I won't take on changing an entitlement attitude.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[FlyingToIST]

Jedi,
I ended up hiring a very good instructor who ended being a great person as well. Actually, his personality was speaking volumes to me. He is working full time in a warehouse full time and teaching in the afternoons and weekends as much as he can.

He is only 23. He is paying off loans for a big aviation school but he got a lot from the training he received there..

I guess eventually good things (and good CFIs) come to those who wait..

 

[awacs941]

As any flight school or major flight training academy you will have the ones that are good and care about you, and you will have the ones that could careless and the ones that do not have any commonsense... Their everywhere! Not just part 61 vs part 141

-Brian